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Wendy
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« on: Apr 13, 2010, 04:28 PM »

Hello All,

I had two sessions this week, one with a woman, 64, with SN in Sag, conjunct Jupiter in Scorpio in the 5th, and the other with a woman, 35 with NN in Sag in the 6th.

I would like to post my findings and then get feedback to help me further understand their evolutionary path and signature and to shed more light onto the deeper meaning of the aspects and placements within their charts.

I hope I can post their charts.  For some reason I have not been able to upload from photobucket lately.

Client A--Born June 11, 1974, 6:59AM Bridgeport, CT
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/Forum%20Charts/clienta.gif[/img]]


19 degree SN Gemini conjunct the Sun at 20 in the 12th house
12 degree Mercury in Cancer in the 1st house square Pluto
NN Sagittarius in the 6th square Jupiter in Pisces 16 in the 9th with Ceres & Juno 13 and Pisces Moon 2 degrees.
Retrograde Pluto in Libra 4 degrees in the 4th conjunct Vesta

Here's my interpretation thus far:  
Gemini SN/Sun in the 12th: gave lifeforce to divine, student of the divine, vital channel-communicator of the unseen, sensitive to environment of the collective unconscious, spiritual realm, possibly lifeforce and ability to communicate was muted, hidden from collective world
SN-Sun:  Balsamic 359 conjunction (although not sure if I calculated the Sun right)

Mercury in 1st: initiation of self, mind learning about emotional body
SN-Mercury: Balsamic 337 degrees very close to semi-sextile aspect, off by 4 degrees
looks isolated to me--somehow frozen, but I can't say why necessarily, yes she's frozen in emotional body, right?

Sag NN in 6th: seeking discernment of prior experiences to expand through devotion, self-improvement, service

Pisces Jupiter in 9th: seeking to teach about spirituality, healing, sensitivity, channel the divine

Pluto in Libra-4th house: Not sure how to describe this...Pluto squares Mercury 278 Last Quarter Phase...I read JWG Pluto in Libra description, so square implies the need to balance in relationship through communication...4th house means to be emotionally secure within the self rather than seeking it from others...seems this square implies the need to connect emotionally?

Not overly emotional or attaching that I can see, if anything intimacy has been difficult, Mother ill throughout her childhood, death loomed near, said she woke at night as a child and would talk herself to sleep

Current transits activating:  Pluto square Pluto, Saturn square Saturn conjunct natal Pluto, nodes soon to conjunct oppose Mercury and square Pluto, Pluto edging close to descandant-7th house, Jupiter return

Client A became a massage client of mine in 1997, several years later she went to massage school.  Talking about astrology was a connection for us then, and she has just appeared again calling specifically seeking the Divine Feminine (although not exactly sure what that is), and is feeling frustrated in relationship with husband, particularly around communication issues...the other component is difficulty sleeping, she has had problem since she was a child...she also had difficulty sleeping while she was pregnant with her daughter...she has had off and on insomnia now, she is working with a natruopath regarding adrenal issues.
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Client B:  March 16, 1947, 1:10PM, Manhatten, NY
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv196/Astroearth/Forum%20Charts/clientp.gif[/img]]

Very interesting chart she has...

Sag SN 5 degrees in 5th--conjunct retro Jupiter and Magdalena in Scorpio 27 (8 orb) 352 Balsamic phase,
trine Pisces Sun 25 degrees:  Lots of attention, grandeur, inconsideration of others, creative expansive knowledge, looks like a leader to me, religious power over others in the past?

Mercury 10 Pisces in the 8th house conjunct retro Mars squares the nodes
274 Last Quarter phase (breaking free or trying to): anger at the divine, men, wants to communicate in relationship through spirit, through metaphysical?

11th house Uranus in Gemini 17 opposing the Capricorn Moon in the 6th, 210 inconjunct full phase...shocking cold detached mothering

Retrograde Pluto 11 degrees Leo in the 1st opposite Venus 13 Aquarius in the 7th (full phase 182 degrees), square Chiron Scorpio in the 4th
Soul's desire to explore creative self-actualization, karma from 5th house playing out...clearly see sexual abuse, molestation which she confirmed...Venus in Aquarius wants to break free, independent in relationships

Thus far she is unable to have balance in her relationships with men, gives her power, voice away, in dominant relationship where inner voice isn't heard, too busy.

Clearly there is a lot of trauma to be healed.  We have bodywork healing session scheduled.
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Any insights or feedback anyone can share is much appreciated.

Love and God'dess Blessings,
Wendy

« Last Edit: Apr 13, 2010, 08:07 PM by Wendy » Logged
Wendy
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 14, 2010, 03:12 PM »

I think my post may have been missed.  Is it okay for me to have posted these charts and ask these questions?
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jana
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 14, 2010, 03:47 PM »

Hi Wendy,

Have you determined evolutionary stages for these clients?
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Steve
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 14, 2010, 03:52 PM »

I think my post may have been missed.  Is it okay for me to have posted these charts and ask these questions?

Hi Wendy

When you are doing EA, all chart analysis starts with Pluto, by house and sign.
Then you look at the South Node by house and sign, and the ruler of the south node.
These represent the evolutionary signature.

Then you look at the Pluto Polarity Point by house and sign, and the North Node by house and sign, and the ruler of the north node.
These represent where that Soul is seeking to evolve towards in the present lifetime.

You said in the first analysis you didn't know how to describe Pluto in Libra in the 4th house.  I am suggesting that without knowing how to describe Pluto by its house and sign, you have no way to understand the rest of the chart.  Everything in the chart is there BECAUSE of the location of Pluto by house and sign. So if you don't understand that baseline, what is the rest of your analysis based on?

When practicing EA, Pluto is always the FIRST thing analyzed.  If you can't describe what Pluto means,  you have to stop there until you can.  

It's good that you posted these charts, because maybe we can use them as a way to teach some basic chart interpretation from an EA perspective.   Also, the recommended house system for working with EA is Porphyry.  (You can create a porphyry chart on astro.com).

What I suggest is, let's look at the first chart only for now.   I've posted a different version of it here that is porphyry (in this case the house system didn't make much difference).


Wendy, do some study of the archetypes as detailed in Pluto Vol 1.  Post some possibilities about the nature of a Soul that has 4th house Pluto in Libra, 12th house south node in Gemini, and Mercury, the south node ruler in Cancer in the 1st, conjunct the ascendant.  
Something to consider:  Libra and Gemini are air signs (mental), 4th and 12th and Cancer are water signs (emotional).  

Let's keep this really basic at this point.  That applies to anyone else who wants to reply here also.  Let's first determine the evolutionary past and intentions of this Soul in this life, the Pluto formula evolutionary signature.  We will flesh in more after we get a handle on that.

Jana's made a good point also.  What would you say is the evolutionary stage of the first client?
Steve
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Wendy
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« Reply #4 on: Apr 14, 2010, 04:22 PM »

Okay, thanks Steve.  I did read about Pluto in Libra and I know about 4th house Pluto, so here goes:

Pluto 4th house Libra:
4th house:  soul is seeking emotional security, which most likely is not fulfilled in early home life, i.e., in relationships with parents and/or in early home environment, thus soul will seek out relationships which mirror those early relationships in hopes to finally achieve emotional security externally rather than within itself, although the Pluto 4th house individual is truly seeking emotional security within the self.

Libra:  soul is seeking to relate, yet most likely learns to relate from a sense of emotional neediness, because original emotional security is not meet in relationship with parents, seeking to learn balance in relationships

Gemini SN 12th house:  soul is coming from prior lives where it related logically and existentially rather than emotionally in human relationships?  Although Mercury in Cancer suggests emotion of somekind, right?

I didn't attempt to figure the Evolutionary Stage, although I did think about it.

Evolutionary Stage:  First or second stage individuated.


« Last Edit: Apr 14, 2010, 04:26 PM by Wendy » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 14, 2010, 05:14 PM »

Quote
I didn't attempt to figure the Evolutionary Stage, although I did think about it.

Evolutionary Stage:  First or second stage individuated.

Hi Wendy
First, you can't interpret a chart without knowing the evolutionary stage, because the same chart will play out quite differently in different evolutionary stages.   So again, one must understand the evolutionary signature (including stage) to interpret an chart.

When you can say "1st or 2nd", you have not looked at the person deeply enough, because when you understand the archetypes it will be pretty obvious which one the person is in.  There are big differences between 1st and 2nd stage individuated.  Thus it can't be "one or the other".

Please go over to that long recent topic about evolutionary stages.  I wrote a post about 2nd stage individuated a few days ago.  There is a lot of material in other posts in that topic about 1st stage individuated.   You have known this person over ten years.  Please reflect on the archetypes and make your determination of the person's evolutionary stage.

I will add, it would be uncommon for a 2nd stage individuated person to seek the counsel of an astrologer, or anyone outside their tight knit group of rebels, because they have lost most trust in external authorities.  (There can be exceptions to this generality.)
Steve
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Wendy
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 14, 2010, 08:43 PM »

Thanks for your help here Steve. 

I read the latest post on the stages which I hadn't read.  They are very new to me, so I was guessing rather than really applying clear logic.  She is definitely not individuated.  She must be first stage spiritual.  She is holistically oriented, though I have never heard her speak of God or spirit before, and comes from a place of smallness (Virgo) which is considered first stage spiritual.

Plus, Pluto in the house of ego, SN in the house of God, she is seeking to integrate spiritual logos (ego mind-Mercury Cancer) through her current personality (4th house Pluto) and expand her knowledge, even develop her ego, through the domain of self-analysis, improvement and discernment and work (NN Sag 6th house and Jupiter/Moon in Pisces).

I realize her Pluto polarity is Aries in the 10th, but I can't go there yet.

Also, I thought I read in some of the previous posts that a soul could be evolving between stages, such as 3rd stage individuated to 1st stage spiritual?

Thanks for your help,
Wendy
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Steve
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 14, 2010, 11:02 PM »

Hi Wendy

I read the latest post on the stages which I hadn't read.  They are very new to me, so I was guessing rather than really applying clear logic.  She is definitely not individuated.  She must be first stage spiritual.  She is holistically oriented, though I have never heard her speak of God or spirit before, and comes from a place of smallness (Virgo) which is considered first stage spiritual.

Plus, Pluto in the house of ego, SN in the house of God, she is seeking to integrate spiritual logos (ego mind-Mercury Cancer) through her current personality (4th house Pluto) and expand her knowledge, even develop her ego, through the domain of self-analysis, improvement and discernment and work (NN Sag 6th house and Jupiter/Moon in Pisces).
...
Also, I thought I read in some of the previous posts that a soul could be evolving between stages, such as 3rd stage individuated to 1st stage spiritual?

Because, in the other topic, you expressed a lot of confusion about understanding the evolutionary stages, I would like to take this very slowly and go into detail, from the very beginning.

You say "she must be 1st stage spiritual" - on what basis do you make that statement?  What are your observations and reasoning that lead to that conclusion.

(I also want to point out you said a few hours ago she could be 1st stage individuated.  Now you are saying 1st stage spiritual.  It can take 20,000+ years to evolve that much, so that is not a small leap.  Thus we need to get much clearer on these evolutionary stages).

I'd like you to go over the reasons you've concluded she might be 1st stage spiritual.  In terms of feeling small, we are looking at a 12th house south node, a 4th house Pluto, which is inherently going to feel emotionally like a small child, and Moon and Jupiter in Pisces, which are also going to feel small and insignificant.  So we need to question, is that sense of feeling small coming from a person in the 1st stage spiritual, or is it coming from those chart symbols, that are going to feel small in all evolutionary stages?  And if the feeling is mainly coming from the chart symbols, then the person is not necessarily in 1st stage spiritual at all.

The essence of 1st stage spiritual is a deeply devotional nature.  Have you observed this?  There is going to be a sense of "cosmic awareness".  It may not always be expressed verbally, but you are going to feel that sense pouring out of the person - they are going to be much deeper than the great majority of people.  Have you experienced that with this person?   

Because we are using this as a learning experience for you, and because you have known the person for many years, you might just want to call them up and ask them some questions.  You say you have never heard her speak of God or Spirit.  You may want to ask her questions about those subjects.   

One thing you are going to find in her chart is a Soul that to quite a degree has learned to intellectualize its emotions  (south node in 12th in Gemini, and Pluto/Uranus in Libra in 4th house).  Some of the cause of this is a lot of trauma that has been experienced (Uranus, plus Venus in the 11th), where it has learned that it is not safe to express what it really feels.   It is quite likely (south node in 12th) this Soul is an example of the Pisces/12th house hiding tendency we spoke of in the other long topic.  Thus you are going to have to draw this person's actual reality out of them, because they have learned it is not safe to say what they really feel.   The way to draw that out is through helping them develop trust in you.   That requires you to be able to hear, and to listen deeply to, the actual inner reality of that person.

You may want to start by having a phone conversation that takes place on a deeper level than any conversation you have had with her previously.

There is no place for guessing in doing EA chart analysis.  Not guessing what evolutionary stage the person is in, not guessing what their inner reality is like, not guessing what symbols in their chart may mean.
Steve

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Bradley J
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 15, 2010, 12:53 AM »

Wendy,
It was uncanny to read your post when I just had a session with a client with several similarities in the charts.  I am sure my client was 3rd stage individuated-mid to late.
I felt compelled to share a session follow up I had written up. 
I was faced with some challenges coming into this session- specifically deciding what house that pluto and and the north node ruling jupiter were in.  Post session, I strongly felt that this was the beginning of this soul learning lessons of pluto in the forth house.  Also, jupiter was clearly making sense to keep in the eighth.
The following post is the write up I just finished.  I want to share that I still feel a bit uncomfortable with the confidence and certainty of sharing very specific statements with clients that will potentially have a strong impact on their life.  It can be scary for me...yet, moving ahead with full faith in sticking to the core signature and all the knowledge I have gained from studying Jeffery Wolf Green's EA Materials and this MB, I pray and trust that what flows through is going to ultimately be of help to others.  And I am continually amazed at how powerful and right on this method is.  For me, I am almost afraid to actually speak the literalness of what the symbols speak...then through conversation, observation, and correlation to find out how so very true it all is...so blown away by all this.  Wow, what a gift EA is.

Blessings,
Bradley



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Bradley J
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 15, 2010, 12:54 AM »

Your soul’s past life evolutionary intention has been to establish inner emotional security.(pluto 4th)  Especially in regards to relationships, you have been working - at a soul level - on knowing exactly what is and is not a healthy expectation from others in meeting your emotional needs.(pluto libra/4th)  A big part of learning this lesson has been to set up circumstances in which your immediate family in this life were not providing the nurturing and emotional support that you needed.  In response to these traumas, you were ‘thrown back’ upon yourself repeatedly to reinforce the lesson of becoming your own source of inner emotional security.  Any time you have found yourself in relationships in which you have begun to rely too much on the outside source for these needs to be met, the ‘famous rug’ was pulled out from under you.
   Your soul has set up crisis, relative to the above, specifically around establishing your own sense of power and voice of personal authority in the world.  (sn ruler mercury aries-10/pluto inconjunct moon/sun 4-10) Your actual purpose in this life is to establish new experiences of ‘career’(ppp): that you work within the existing cultural reality that is resonant with your core essence and values in life. (sun taurus 10th) How you actually process on an emotional level day by day, moment by moment, is whether or not what you are doing, relative to your special role in any work/responsibility/career is resonant with your own values.(moon taurus inconjunct pluto)  ON a cyclic basis, your soul has set up crisis in this and previous lives in which you were suddenly no longer able to ‘perform your duty/obligation/responsibilities that were expected of you(by your self and/or others) because you realized that the work itself, or parts of the shared work, did not align with your core values.  These crises have enforced lessons of what you actually can and cannot do through the experience of needing to adjust what you have been committed to. (210 inconjunct moon-pluto) These crisis also resulted in furthering the development of your own sense of social humility and purification of intentions.  The bottom line of these crisis has been that you have not been able to get emotional support and nurturing outside yourself in these moments.  In this sense, the crises of adjusting your commitments to your work to align with your core values - what you know deep inside that you can or cannot actually do and live with yourself - these crises have enforced the lessons of self security at your deepest level.
   Another layer to all of this:  as we discussed you have jumped ahead in past lives, specifically by forming close relationships with women in your life who have acted as teachers (venus/jupiter square nodes) - sharing between you belief about life and the why within all existence. (jupiter pisces 8/venus pisces 9th)
These past relationships helped you develop your own beliefs and life philosophies regarding helping others and what it means to be of service. (nn sag 6th-nn ruler jupiter) These relationships were of a guiding nature in the sense that these women saw you-with a strong desire to speak up for yourself within the existing patriarchal cultures.  You alone would challenge the powers that be with questions of the ultimate meaning that those in power were working for. (mercury as ruler sn 12) These women saw this in you and in a sense helped you channel this vigor and work ethic (all this 10th) into causes and services that did resonate with your core values. (skipped ahead nn) It was in these relationships that you really began to develop your own philosophies toward service, helping others, and what doing one’s part is all about.  
Within these past life experiences in which you had closeness with these life teachers, thereby beginning to actually align “work” with a sense of service to the community(relative to the place and time) you experienced the challenge - crisis in action - relative to confusion around what your own special purpose and role was within this work.  For example, by surrendering to the direction of the one guiding you, you had reached an inner crisis in how to proceed.  (waxing square jupiter/venus to nn & pluto moon inconjunct)  You had confusion around your developing beliefs aligning with the purpose you were actually responsible for. (neptune sag 5th squaring jupiter) This created a tension and at times readjustment in the sense of ending certain relationships with certain women in your lives because of core realization that the service you were actually providing was not a true expression of your own creative purpose AND it was also not aligned with your core values.  Again, the woman you had let into your life and learned from was then no longer available to actually provide you the inner support you needed as your continued on the journey. (all this relative to pluto 4th)  This resulted in confrontation in the relationship regarding your different core beliefs and values and had ended in termination of the relationship, or at least the end of how you had seen and held this person in your life and what you naively trusted them to provide you with. (jupiter 8th as skipped step inconjunct pluto 4)
   Within all of this, something else has been going on inside your soul.  These relationships you had formed with mentoring women and all the karmic relationship lessons and conversations around the ultimate approach to life and service - which in turn led to you initiating new experiences in career path and role you played in the relative society - these experiences left deep soul questions unanswered. (unresolved sn gemini 12) In fact, deep inside yourself you were experiencing crises in what to believe. (waning square mars/saturn 12 to pluto relative to all rest)   You still have a lot of questions regarding the ultimate nature of reality, the timeless and spaceless spirit world and how this impacts our lives.  Your own spiritual questions were not allowed the expression within a fully developed paradigm of life that those you were close with had developed.  You alone had to still pose your questions. (mercury aries)  Actually initiating questions regarding the limiting natures of reality - how long will this go on?  How much power and resources do we actually have to make this happen?  Where will this be carried out and how will these responsibilities be organized? (10th mercury as sn ruler 12) These types of questions would come across as strong and assertive - driven by your desire to nurture your own definition of the unseen divine.(mars/saturn cancer 12)  Others did not understand your intentions around your questioning nature and felt deeply threatened.  (mercury chiron aries opposite uranus/mars t-square pluto/mc, jupiter 8th)  Also, part of the need for these questions was to understand your own level of involvement also.  Some of your deep wounds lie around these past life experiences of being the voice that spoke up and questioned the powers that be. (skipped step sn ruler mercury chiron 10th)
   So, at points in time, it would be so much easier to simply have the faith that the work and service you were carrying out were fitting into “what you were to do”, yet you have questions. questions. and more questions.  (push/pull of skipped step) In this life, you have experienced your orientation to believing that serving and helping is ‘what to do’  in opposition to desires to nurture your reality so that you ‘move with the spirit’, thereby defining your own sense of security by aligning your actions with where you personally feel led to act or not.  Within this opposition, you have experienced in your relationship to yourself simultaneous attraction and repulsion to both sides of this every day of your life.  For example, as we discussed - you may believe that it is right to help a friend who is in need - you are attracted to helping, you intuit that need (nn sag 6th, jupiter 8th pisces square neptune sag 5th)  and how you can be of assistance...and at the exact same time part of you will be repulsed by this because of your need to have down time, commune with your version of ‘God-dess‘ - the divine.  (gemini sn 12) You have questions of an ultimate nature regarding all these actions triggering crisis within your own beliefs about what you decide to do.  Another aspect to this is the need to feel needed.  Choosing to help because of how much you will be appreciated and a sense of ego fulfillment has led to ‘being burned‘ -- in the sense of realizing in these types of relationships the other person would not be there for you in the ways you needed when you desired outside support.  (appears start - newness of pluto 4th lessons, note technical 4 minutes before cusp)
   All of these experiences your soul has set up in learning essential lesson of creating the inner emotional security, the foundation of your own ego entirely by yourself - to learn how to nurture yourself in the ways that you need, fulfilling yourself from within at the deepest level.(pluto 4th)  Regarding the push/pull between the two paths you experience a continual attraction and repulsion to, the answer lies in the need to resolve the unasked questions you have - questions of a specific space and time nature that reveal the timelessness and limitless nature of the invisible divine - to ask these questions, have the guts to still ask such questions (even though this experience can trigger past wounds) - AND...here is the key...asking these questions relative to how you believe the questions and the way that they are asked can be most helpful to everyone involved. (suggested resolve of skipped step) By practicing this, you will be able to resolve this sensation of being pulled in two directions and you will courageously continue down the ‘career path‘ and trail blaze your place in the world with a healthy inner security around what you are doing and why.
You will empower yourself to ask the right questions to learn when to help and when to say you cannot be involved.  You will adjust your behavior and act with necessary discrimination in your commitments and responsibilities.  (moon pluto) You will be able to continue to nurture your own definition of the unseen realms (mars/saturn cancer 12, nn of jupiter exact conjunct saturn) and adjust your beliefs to support your personal needs for retreat and withdraw from your activities, obligations, and responsibilities.  (integration of sn 12 with orientation to help other - nn 6th)

Steve - thanks for mentioning the mars pluto square = adding this
(mars saturn square pluto)
Your conscious desires to retreat - dissappear - have your ‘you’ time, alone time, processing time, resting time - your desire to nurture and define this part of your life is in constant challenge to inner emotional needs you have.  At times when you seek fulfillment of emotional needs in relationship out of security needs that you are not fulfilling from within yourself, you will also have a hard time being fully present.  Why?  part of you is desiring this other experience - a break from all this activity.  This will especially come up within ‘social obligations’ and what you believe you ‘should’ do for another or even what you see you could do - you know you could help, but... you are not desiring the experience.  Going off this gut instinct triggers emotional insecurities and a sense of ‘social humility’ as you express what you can and can not do - often for reasons that you do not have the exact words and time to explain.
« Last Edit: Apr 20, 2010, 09:40 AM by Bradley J » Logged

Bradley J
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 15, 2010, 01:26 AM »

Wendy, Steve, and all,

It seems like it may be helpful if I post why I determined this clients evolutionary stage to be mid into late in 3rd stage Individuated.
Here are the reasons:
Relationship to self clearly shows individuation outside of consensus without a doubt.
Clearly not 1st Stage Ind. because there is nowhere near any 'living the lie' or still living consensus externally.
Dedication to community and social commitment in the bigger picture strong and embraced.  Plays an influential role in shaping community surrounding in specific special roles.  So, doesn't sound like 2nd stage individuated.
From this point, I am clear it is not anything beyond 1st stage spiritual, part of me still wonders between mid 3rd stage individuated, late 3rd ind, or cusp between individuated and spiritual.

When I sit with this all, tend to settle on transitioning in mid/late 3rd stage individuated.  Not 100%.

Blessings,
Bradley
  
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Steve
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 15, 2010, 08:21 AM »

Bradley

Thank you for your posts and thoughts.  I found them a big contribution to this topic. 

We have to accept, none of us are going to be 100% certain of our conclusions, and we are all concerned that what we offer a client is true enough to be of real value to them, and not misinterpretation that might potentially harm them.  That uncertainty is part of the process, and owning it, I think, helps keep us humble and tuned in.

You expressed those concerns eloquently. 

One main reason I chose to go into more depth with Wendy's chart postings is because the discussion will demonstrate for other message board readers the process of how EA chart interp is done.  How one goes about determining evolutionary stage in a real life situation.  Etc.

So writing about the process you went through with that analysis is most helpful, and exactly what I hoped people would contribute. 

You also expressed eloquently conclusions I've come to too.  That the SYSTEM of EA, when learned, when practiced as best one can aligned with the way it has been taught, is profound.   There is no need to guess about anything, because everything is revealed in the symbols, through using the paradigm.  It is all quite objective.  It's simply there.

That is why I stress, over and over, learning the archetypes, learning the system, deeply imprinting it within one's self.  And following the system, exactly as it has been laid out.  My experience has been, when one does that, the results prove themselves - empirical evidence.

It will be really helpful if people add examples from their own work, of this process, how they reached the conclusions they came to, how they determined evolutionary stage, how they interpreted the core evolutionary signature in a chart.

I would add one more piece - the Mars - Pluto phase is also extremely important, and we can bring that into this discussion too.
thank you
Steve

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Wendy
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 15, 2010, 09:14 AM »

Hi Steve,

After going back and reading the descriptions of the individuated states on the other post, it was clear she is not in an individuated state.  Without having complete definitions of the different states, it seems impossible to know.  So I see I must study these stages more, and I have ordered Deva's book as I mentioned before to help me with that.

You say "she must be 1st stage spiritual" - on what basis do you make that statement?  What are your observations and reasoning that lead to that conclusion.

I made that decision based on the chart, and her orientation to holistic practices, which are not concensus, and her desire to connect with the Divine Feminine.  I think my understanding of individuated is not clear.  I read your post from the other thread and it looked like individuated stages are angry and fully out-there expressing how different they are.  This woman is not like that at all.  She is seeking, questioning, wanting to know herself.  This is why I went to 1st stage spiritual, especially after you clearly directed me to the thread on the stages.

So we need to question, is that sense of feeling small coming from a person in the 1st stage spiritual, or is it coming from those chart symbols, that are going to feel small in all evolutionary stages?  And if the feeling is mainly coming from the chart symbols, then the person is not necessarily in 1st stage spiritual at all.

The essence of 1st stage spiritual is a deeply devotional nature.  Have you observed this?  There is going to be a sense of "cosmic awareness".  It may not always be expressed verbally, but you are going to feel that sense pouring out of the person - they are going to be much deeper than the great majority of people.

Yes she is much more aware and much deeper than the majority of people, although she's not as expressive about it.

One thing you are going to find in her chart is a Soul that to quite a degree has learned to intellectualize its emotions  (south node in 12th in Gemini, and Pluto/Uranus in Libra in 4th house).  Some of the cause of this is a lot of trauma that has been experienced (Uranus, plus Venus in the 11th), where it has learned that it is not safe to express what it really feels.   It is quite likely (south node in 12th) this Soul is an example of the Pisces/12th house hiding tendency we spoke of in the other long topic.

I think I said she was emotionally frozen, using logic, 12th house Gemini.  Also I have Uranus/Pluto in the 4th with Venus and I wouldn't categorize myself as intellectualizing my emotions, so I don't understand the reference there, although I do understand the trauma and how that creates a disassociation.

Isn't hiding a 1st stage spiritual phase? or is a Pisces tendency?

Thus you are going to have to draw this person's actual reality out of them, because they have learned it is not safe to say what they really feel.   The way to draw that out is through helping them develop trust in you.   That requires you to be able to hear, and to listen deeply to, the actual inner reality of that person.

You may want to start by having a phone conversation that takes place on a deeper level than any conversation you have had with her previously.


She clearly trusts me, and I have spoken deeply with her, listening.  My challenge is trusting my own knowing when we are talking, because she seems to not respond, which makes me mistrust my own understanding/analysis of her chart.

We have a follow up in early May, so I will write out some questions I can ask her to go further/deeper.

Also, I don't know her very well.  She was my client for a short time 10 years ago and has just now contacted me.  I always thought her somewhat aloof nature was contributed to her Gemini Sun, which I now see is completely related to her SN.

There is no place for guessing in doing EA chart analysis.  Not guessing what evolutionary stage the person is in, not guessing what their inner reality is like, not guessing what symbols in their chart may mean.

On one of the other threads it was said, an individuals evolutionary stage is one of the hardest to determine, so I congratulate myself for even attempting to read her chart from an EA perspective.  My "guessing" comes from attempting to learn.  I actually spent an hour going over her chart, before talking with her.  I am not out advertising that I do evolutionary astrology, thus I feel defense as some of my interpretations were correct, albeit lacking the complete understanding and the language to explain it fully (NN Gemini).  

I understand this forum is about learning and understanding EA astrology, therefore I see the reasoning for using this post as an example.  It actually took a lot of courage for me to post it in the first place.  I have thought several times I should participate on the practice charts thread.  I feel you are attempting to guide into making very clear assesments of her chart, directing me away from intuiting anything about the chart.  

I am gladly willing to learn and clearly there is much to learn.  

Thank you,
Wendy
« Last Edit: Apr 15, 2010, 09:24 AM by Wendy » Logged
Bradley J
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 15, 2010, 10:41 AM »

Wendy and Steve,
I will come back and add into the interpretation post what symbols were reflected.
This makes sense that it would be more helpful because Wendy your chart of client A and the one I posted do have similarities, yet as Steve pointed out, this may be lost in the interpretation without referencing from where interpretation came.
I'll add this when I have time.

Thanks,
Bradley
   
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Steve
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 15, 2010, 12:11 PM »

Hi Wendy

Nothing I said was intended to criticize or judge anything you've said or done.

I acknowledge the courage it takes you to put your questions and interpretations up on this public message board.  And that courage is much appreciated here.

You've made it clear to me, from the evolutionary stages post and on into this one, that you are having some difficulty with grasping portions of the EA paradigm.  All I have done, there and here, is try to explain, to put in terms you might be better able to understand, areas of EA that you feel you are having difficulty with.

When I read the order in which you analyzed those client charts, it was clear to me there is quite a bit about the EA paradigm you don't yet understand.  That is why I began this discussion in the first place.  The only reason was to try to assist you.

I am going to suggest it feels like you may have some unlearning, or de-learning, of other astrological systems you have studied, to do before you are really going to grasp EA at a Soul level.  I don't think there is anything particularly difficult to grasp in EA.  In some ways it seems you might be making it more difficult than it really is, because of ways you are conceptualizing certain things.  I am just trying to point out some of what I think those might be, so you can examine them and see if there is anything to what I am saying.  If not, feel free to ignore whatever I say that doesn't feel like a fit for you.

In terms of system vs. intuition, EA is a right brain intuitive SYSTEM.  Intuition is a major piece in practicing EA.  However, that intuition is guided through insights that come from understanding the system.  Sometimes it feels to me you have resistance to learning the system, as if doing so will limit your ability to intuit as you do.  That is a false fear - intuition is a key part of EA analysis.

Please consider, you are the one who asked for assistance with the interpretations you came up with, which came from your intuition.  Thus you yourself are questioning the accuracy of your own intuitions.  That is the reason you made this post in the first place.  

All I am trying to do is help you see how the EA system actually works - not the way you think it works, but the way it is actually intended to be applied.  If you can receive that, you will find the accuracy of your intuitions will greatly improve in usefulness for your clients.

I found what Bradley posted to be really valuable.  And he is going to post more.  If you can grasp where he is coming from, and why, it will help you understand more deeply.

I am not yet convinced your client is 1st stage spiritual.  I am not saying she isn't.  You just haven't presented compelling evidence so far.  Thinking about spiritual concepts is not the same as living them out as one's emotional reality.  The thinking about them begins in 3rd stage individuated.    

Also, no one has mentioned anything about anger being associated with 3rd stage individuated. Anger is associated with 2nd stage individuated only, not 1st or 3rd.  Based on what you wrote it sounded like you have made an association between individuated and anger.   If so, that is another place you are not yet grasping the spectrum of stage archetypes.   In its upper stages 3rd stage individuated is a culminating archetype, the beginning of the switchover to 1st stage spiritual.  It is possible your client is either in that transition, or close to it.

Also, not every 12th house / Pisces person is going to exhibit hiding behavior.  Again, there are not hard and fast rules - every individual is completely unique, based on their unique past and present.  This is the reason one must learn the archetypes deeply and not just look for behaviors that appear to fill the words attributed to different archetypes.   You have to learn to look from the inside out.  And that first requires learning the system - not by memorizing characteristics, but by grasping the way that Soul evolution functions in life, in the life of everything, without even considering astrology.  It is simply the observed way that life functions.  As you grasp that more deeply, it becomes easier to measure where on that evolutionary continuum any one Soul is - it becomes more or less self-evident when you learn what the clues are.  Astrology is first Observation, and then correlating those observations with what is happening in the sky while the behaviors are being observed.  But it starts with Observation, which is outside of the realm of astrology altogether.  

Your contributions and questions here are much appreciated.  We are here to help people understand EA, how it really works.  It is a very UNconditioned system, based on Natural Law.  We are all quite conditioned, and have forgotten how to see things from an unconditioned perspective.  Much of learning EA requires releasing our own (unseen) conditioned beliefs and responses.
I hope this is helpful.  
Steve
« Last Edit: Apr 15, 2010, 02:31 PM by Steve » Logged

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