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Wendy
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« Reply #15 on: Apr 17, 2010, 09:17 PM »

Thank you so much Dhyana.  Your response is very kind and helpful, and I too am learning a great deal from your inquiries and posts.  

Bradley thank you as well for posting your clients chart and sharing the way you went about approaching the evolutionary intent of their soul.

I am grateful and appreciate both of your sharings and insights.  I haven't responded before now as I needed some space from this, and I am just finished reworking/editing a 16,000 word thesis due Monday morning, so I hope this post makes sense.

Steve I do very much appreciate your help.  Since I have begun participating more fully on the forum your willingness to respond to my inquiries have helped me probably more than you know.  It seems on this particular post though, that however I have responded, I've missed the boat.  

It was suggested to keep it simple, so I did, and posted very basic observations, not wanting to over do it, especially after my initial extensive post.  It's quite possible that I am being overly sensitive about this, since this is the first time I have posted charts to analyze with all of you.  

One thing I do know, in groups especially when learning something new, I can feel very vulnerable (Cap Moon, 10th house pattern of hiding-Saturn Pisces square SN), and if I feel singled out, I feel threatened, especially if their is a criticizing tone to the feedback which I felt especially towards the end of your last response.  By sharing that I felt defensive, I was trying to diffuse it, not spur it on.

I did study EA, or so I thought, with an astrologer from 2005-2007, who in fact wrote a book about Pluto, based on JWG's work as well as his own findings (I think).  He continually suggested that I not to intuit the chart (SN in Sag) and practice specific steps to determine Pluto's natal house, sign and aspects before reading anything else in the chart.  I learned many basics to archetypes and practiced some of the steps, but the teaching relationship was not truly functional and soured for many reasons, mainly because I didn't trust my intuition on many levels.  So now I want to honor my feelings and not just shrug my inner inklings off.  That said, I am sensitive to trusting another teacher where I perceive any incongruences in tone or otherwise.  So that must be the resistance you suggest.
 
As a teacher myself, usually a few sentences of encouragement to look deeper helps students uncover what's hidden right in front of them.  Overall I felt confused after reading the feedback, like I was supposed to know something I didn't, and find the answers without the resources.

I hope to thoroughly read through Bradley's post and mindfully apply the EA principle to the analysis of Client A's chart, while not abandoning my intuitive knowing.

Thank you for this forum and I hope my response is received in kind.

God'dess Blessings,
Wendy


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Steve
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« Reply #16 on: Apr 18, 2010, 01:43 AM »

Hi Wendy

See my comments below.
Steve

One thing I do know, in groups especially when learning something new, I can feel very vulnerable (Cap Moon, 10th house pattern of hiding-Saturn Pisces square SN), and if I feel singled out, I feel threatened, especially if their is a criticizing tone to the feedback which I felt especially towards the end of your last response.  By sharing that I felt defensive, I was trying to diffuse it, not spur it on.

There is nothing of a criticizing tone in anything I said to you.  Please reread it and try to remove the filter that says you were being criticized, and see if you can read it in a different light.  I was being direct, not at all critical.

I don't understand how you could feel singled out.  You wrote a post on a message board asking for suggestions and feedback.  I replied to that post.  It was your post.  I responded to you since it was your post.  How can you be singled out when the answer to a post you wrote is directed to you?  You are the only one who asked the questions.   If I had talked about you in a reply to a post that someone else had written that had nothing to do with you, that would be singling you out.  But to answer you directly in a reply to your own post? 

I acknowledge that you feel as you did.  I am not saying you did not or should not have felt as you did.  You have the right to have that response if you choose to.  I am saying, if you objectively review the context of what triggered your feeling that way, I think you will see you reacted to something that really was not there in the ways you took it.

Quote
I did study EA, or so I thought, with an astrologer from 2005-2007, who in fact wrote a book about Pluto, based on JWG's work as well as his own findings (I think).  He continually suggested that I not to intuit the chart (SN in Sag) and practice specific steps to determine Pluto's natal house, sign and aspects before reading anything else in the chart.  I learned many basics to archetypes and practiced some of the steps, but the teaching relationship was not truly functional and soured for many reasons, mainly because I didn't trust my intuition on many levels.  So now I want to honor my feelings and not just shrug my inner inklings off.  That said, I am sensitive to trusting another teacher where I perceive any incongruences in tone or otherwise.  So that must be the resistance you suggest.

Wendy, i am not in any way acting in the role of, or trying to be, a teacher to you.  I am simply answering your questions and giving my opinions, suggestions, insights, for you to take or not take as feels right to you.  You are free to trust or not trust me as you feel to.  I almost suggest you DON'T trust me - keep an open mind - try on the things I said - check them out - see whether they work for you.  If they don't work for you, throw them out.  I really have very little to do with this process.

In terms of studying EA for 2 or 3 years, the whole reason I started this post is because it was obvious to me from looking at the analysis of the 2 charts you posted that you did not use the EA Pluto formula in either of them.  Thus you were not practicing the EA paradigm.  This is a message board about learning EA, so when you post questions asking for assistance on deepening your posted analysis, the very first suggestions you are going to receive are to use the EA Pluto formula - that is the whole point of this message board.  And that is exactly what I did, and all I did.

I agree with your former EA teacher to the extent that, as I already said in previous posts, you need to learn the EA methodology of chart interpretation if you want to practice Evolutionary Astrology.  Otherwise what you are doing is not EA.  There is nothing wrong with practicing astrological systems other than EA, but there is something wrong with practicing a non-EA form of astrology and then believing or telling others that you are doing Evolutionary Astrology, when you are not.

I kept directing you back to the beginning, to the evolutionary stage, because EA builds in layers.  If you are building a house on a foundation that is not solidly constructed, sooner or later your house is going to fall in.   We build a solid foundation when doing EA analysis, so when the analysis is constructed, it is solid, because it is built step by step on top of a solid foundation.

It makes no difference to me personally, at all, whether in the end you choose to practice the EA methodology.  The only reason I answered is because you ASKED FOR HELP.  We can end this series of posts right here if you feel they are not going where you want them to go.  I will have no judgment on you at all if you want to drop this discussion.
 
Quote
As a teacher myself, usually a few sentences of encouragement to look deeper helps students uncover what's hidden right in front of them.  Overall I felt confused after reading the feedback, like I was supposed to know something I didn't, and find the answers without the resources.

Just remember, our conversation did not begin on this post.  We went around on the evolutionary stages post a number of times, with you expressing frustration at the difficulty you were having in understanding the concepts.  There, as here, all I was trying to do was explain, in one way and then another, the basis of the principles, so you could hopefully grasp them.  I have been very encouraging to you along the line.  I look at what was said in this post as a continuation of what began in that other long topic.

Quote
I hope to thoroughly read through Bradley's post and mindfully apply the EA principle to the analysis of Client A's chart, while not abandoning my intuitive knowing.

Let me try saying this again.   The EA system IS intuitive.  It is a somewhat logical form of intuition.  In reality there is no separation between the EA system and your intuition.  They are one and the same.  I understand that is something that each person who studies EA must come to realize,  to experience, on their own. 

Its familiar to me what happens when the light finally comes on for someone.  I know because I had that experience myself, at certain points, where EA information that had been ingested suddenly came alive, became real.  A light literally went on in my head.   

You can't force that experience.  If you continue studying and practicing EA you will inevitably have experiences like that.  In the mean time, it would help you if you try to visualize your intuition and the EA system as one and the same rather than as two things somewhat opposing in nature.  The point of EA is to guide your intuition into focused channels, where it can reveal things on a deeper level than you experienced until that point.  This is built into the system.

I kept driving you back to the baseline, to the simple, so you could start at the bottom and build up from there.   Until you have learned something about accurately determining evolutionary stage, you are going to have problems trying to analyze charts using EA.  That is why I suggested starting there.  I was trying to point out some of the discrepancies in your thinking that seemed to be holding you back from realizing how the stages actually work.  Because you were having difficulty grasping it, and it is not really all that difficult, it led me to believe SOMETHING in you is resisting learning.  Instead of my trying to point out to you what that might be, I now suggest you consider yourself if there is any truth in the possibility that you may be resisting.  If you come to feel there might be truth in that, then consider why you might be resisting.  And, if you conclude you are not resisting, then throw everything I said about you possibly resisting out.  I am in no way trying to tell you what your reality is or should be.  I was simply trying to answer your questions and help you understand more about EA.
Steve
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Wendy
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« Reply #17 on: Apr 18, 2010, 07:56 AM »

Thank you Steve.  I appreciate all you have tried to help me with here and I feel it is best for me to attempt to start over completely, because none of this has turned out how I had hoped or intended. 

So for now, it feels best for me to leave it alone. 


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Dhyana
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« Reply #18 on: Apr 18, 2010, 08:13 AM »

STEVE WRITES: "You can't force that experience.  If you continue studying and practicing EA you will inevitably have experiences like that.  In the mean time, it would help you if you try to visualize your intuition and the EA system as one and the same rather than as two things somewhat opposing in nature.  The point of EA is to guide your intuition into focused channels, where it can reveal things on a deeper level than you experienced until that point.  This is built into the system."

Could we say that the EA paradigm is a Sagittarius/Gemini Axis phenomena, when it(SAG AND GEM) are in accordance with natural law? In that then the  intuitive would be a natural SAG phenomena and the system of the mathmatical science, would be  a natural GEMINI phenomena?    ...WORKING IN A BALANCED WAY, IN NATURAL FLOW TOGETHER?

Could it be possible to say further, that if one has there Nodal Axis in either SAG or GEMINI, or the 3rd and the 9th, or any strong SAG/GEMINI signature, (and they were at the evolutionary state to be drawn to EA) would they then have a NATURAL pull to such a NATURAL system, as much as an innate and natural ability to understand(GEMINI) it?

Dhyana
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2010, 10:44 AM by Dhyana » Logged
Dhyana
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« Reply #19 on: Apr 18, 2010, 08:18 AM »

(Continued)
...as well as a NATURAL and innate ability to intuit(SAG) EA? -(those with the strong SAG/GEM signature/Axis).

PS.(added a few minutes later) I may be having trouble articulating even more than usual now bc Mercury just went retrograde, so I do hope my question was clear, bc I feel it is an important one.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2010, 10:26 AM by Dhyana » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #20 on: Apr 18, 2010, 11:27 AM »

Dhyana

I would describe EA as predominantly Sag/Scorpio.  Scorpio is Pluto, the Soul, the bottom line, the Soul's desire nature and intentions.  Sag is natural law, the way this reality was constructed by its Creator, within which the desires and intentions of the Soul are worked out.

EA simply is what it is, a description of natural processes.  Its like an objective mirror that one can look into to gain context and clarity. 

Most of what you wrote struck me as you looking into that mirror, ruminating on what you were seeing. That includes conditionings (including past fears and wounds) and life intent. 

I found most of what you described to be more your personal material than inherent parts of EA.  Consider if what you are really trying to do is integrate your personal reality through the lens of EA.  If you find truth in that, you may find that framing it exactly as that, no more and no less, will help that process.
Steve
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Steve
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« Reply #21 on: Apr 18, 2010, 11:28 AM »

hi Wendy

I'm good with what you wrote.
Steve
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Dhyana
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« Reply #22 on: Apr 18, 2010, 12:09 PM »

Hi Steve,
I don't think I cam accross clearly. Im going to try this again bc it is something I need to get clear about.

STEVE WRITES : "Dhyana

I would describe EA as predominantly Sag/Scorpio.  Scorpio is Pluto, the Soul, the bottom line, the Soul's desire nature and intentions.  Sag is natural law, the way this reality was constructed by its Creator, within which the desires and intentions of the Soul are worked out.

EA simply is what it is, a description of natural processes.  Its like an objective mirror that one can look into to gain context and clarity. 

Most of what you wrote struck me as you looking into that mirror, ruminating on what you were seeing. That includes conditionings (including past fears and wounds) and life intent. 

I found most of what you described to be more your personal material than inherent parts of EA.  Consider if what you are really trying to do is integrate your personal reality through the lens of EA.  If you find truth in that, you may find that framing it exactly as that, no more and no less, will help that process.
Steve"

Much of what I was describing was my personal material, however, I was also using it, as an example of what I was trying to get at (because while I was looking over what I wrote I felt I was actually trying to get at was not yet clear. And  even still, I feel I didn't quite get accross my actual point and query.

So I am going to try again: should I post it in a new thread?

I will just start with my first basic understanding and question.

Am I correct in saying that the INTUITVE part of EA is SAG?
Am I correct in saying that the SYSTEM OF ASTROLOGICAL/MATHMATECIAL SYMBOLOGY  part of EA is GEMINI?

Let me just get those answers first.
Thanks,
Dhyana

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Dhyana
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« Reply #23 on: Apr 18, 2010, 12:32 PM »

and just a quick FYI

... I had already assumed the main part of EA being SCORPIO/PLUTO --so I do totally understand that foundation.
It is kinda a "given" that is why I didnt mention it.

Thanks,
D
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Lucius
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« Reply #24 on: Apr 18, 2010, 01:00 PM »

My understanding is that astrology is ruled by Aquarius.....whether it be EA, horary, etc., yes,?
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Steve
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« Reply #25 on: Apr 18, 2010, 01:31 PM »

Hi Dhyana

Am I correct in saying that the INTUITVE part of EA is SAG?
Am I correct in saying that the SYSTEM OF ASTROLOGICAL/MATHMATECIAL SYMBOLOGY  part of EA is GEMINI?

I don't really conceptualize EA in the way you suggest here.  I don't conceptualize splitting intuition and system into two opposite components.

Gemini is about collecting information and naming things, using the linear left brain. 

I would say the system of astrological/mathematical symbology in EA did not come from any left brain function.  It is inherent in the natural (Sag) laws of creation - natural law. If you think of the origins of EA, all of this material came to Jeffrey in dreams (Pisces), the polarity of Virgo.  It sprang forth fully developed - there was nothing left brained about its development at all.  Jeffrey did improve and refine the material (Virgo), from his experiences.  (Remember that Pisces/Virgo naturally square Sag)

In terms of systems, in astrology that correlates more closely with Virgo than Gemini.  Gemini is about collecting information and naming things, and about the relativity of all things.   Virgo is about the analysis of information, and creating techniques and systems from what is analyzed. 

As far as EA, Gemini could correlate to the communicating, spreading, speaking, of the EA paradigm and the natural laws (Sag) that the EA system is based on.

I'm not saying your perspective is incorrect.  It's just not how I look at it.
Steve
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Dhyana
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« Reply #26 on: Apr 18, 2010, 01:44 PM »

Thanks, Steve,

In the interim of your reply I was able to get clear and complete about this for myself.

I still do not feel you understand where I was coming from or what I was asking, but I think that is due, in part, by the way I presented my question and understanding.

I don't feel  it would benefit much in trying to break it all down any further because I am having difficulty with communicating myself the way I would like to and I understand inside even though I can't write it out right now.

Thanks anyway for trying,

Dhyana
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