evolutionary states and natural law

[mountainheather]

Can anyone point me to info (posts on the mb, or articles) on how the evolutionary stages look if we lived at a time of integrated feminine, and giving sharing and inclusion.
I am reading The Chalice and the Blade and doing the technique to eliminate masochism and in the process of listing positives to counteract the negative programming I realized a strong desire to see, from the ea perspective, how evolution looks if it is not distorted, so that I can focus more energy there rather than the negative distortions.   I want to understand, remember, realize, live, give my energy to what evolution would look like if it were natural from the ea perspective, and hear what others have to say here.
Thank you, Heather

[Steve]

Hi Heather

One thing I suggest rereading is chapter 3 in Pluto Vol 2, Social, Cultural, Parental, and Religious Imprinting.

You just posted about your experiences with Susun Weed as being of a natural nature.  That is another starting point.   Think of the experiences - festivals, gatherings, workshops, etc. you have attended, where people natural cooperate and help each other rather than competing.  Those are your experiences in current times of natural law in action.  (I used to go to events like that and wonder what would happen if everyone simply refused to go home - and started living that way all the time).

Natural times were not uotopian.  Life was often hard.  Food could be scarce.  A tiger could eat your baby or your animals.  Lightning could strike your hut.  People lived in closer awareness of their dependency on nature for survival.  That created a natural humility, and a sense of banding together as necessary for survival. 

We all lived through such times, and those memories are still within us.  Some of it is finding the memories within, and paying attention to how they feel. 

An important point is, Natural Law is Natural - we don't really have to learn how to live that way - its the way we are actually wired, if only we stop listening to the distorted inner voices we've learned to let override how we naturally feel.  Practicing listening to, and following, intuition is really important too.

As is the work you are doing at getting to the root of the distorted patterns so you can begin releasing them.   And remember, it took a long time to create the distorted patterns.  The path back from distorted to natural can take less time than the path from natural to distorted, because it IS natural.  But it does take time, because we have learned the distorted patterns very well.  Practicing kindness and patience with self on the slow but steady journey back to natural is also really valuable.

hope this is helpful
Steve

[mountainheather]

Hi Steve,
Thank you for your reply, I haven't read Jeffrey's second book, still reading and rereading pluto1 and Deva's book and some old transcripts,and the mb .I guess its time to get pluto 2.
I also was really wondering if Jeffrey ever did as much in depth writing about the evolutionary states if natural law were the norm rather than what has been written in both Deva and Jeffrey's books about the way it actually is now.  I can deduce and imagine and actually see it in action but I was also wondering if there was anything written by an evolutionary astrologer Jeffrey, Deva  specifically about the stages as they have given them, but as they would be if natural law and the feminine was integrated.  I hope I'm not being pushy, I'm just intensely dedicated to this portion of the teachings right now- natural law and the feminine expressed and integrated, I feel when I open to this view(feminine, natural law), I understand the whole system better, moving from the centre outwards.
thanks so much, I am just so happy to be in this connection with this group. Heather

[Linda]

Hi Heather and Steve,

Interesting to read this topic right now as it coincides with an experience I had yesterday with a friend. I had been talking to her about evolutionary astrology for a number of years and recently she started to realize how valuable this information was for her (she has a Scorpio Moon) as it is giving her some deeper astrological answers about behaviour patterns of her family members.

There was a bit of a drawback yesterday though when we had this conversation. I said to her, "The earth is our mother, and we are all brothers and sisters. Just ask Mother Earth for what you need, even if it is money." My friend reacted badly to this, saying, "The earth is not conscious, it is not a being. The ancient natives prayed to mother earth because that is all they knew (pre 10,000 years ago). These days we have technology...." and she was basically saying that to go back to that 'philosophy' was to go backwards. Her attitude saddened me so much.

I don't think she holds any respect or understands native peoples and so I tried to explain about natural laws and how people in ancient times were actually highly spiritually evolved, but her reaction was, "I don't want to go backwards!" 

Why would she have such a negative and arrogant reaction to something so simple and natural as the natural world?  Just wanted to share this experience with you, and perhaps others have had similar experiences? We can't force people to bite the whole apple at once...and we can't overwhelm people with information that sounds crazy to them. How do we get through to people such as these? - or perhaps does she need more lifetimes to realize these natural truths?

Interested in hearing what others think.

[Steve]

Hi Linda

There was a bit of a drawback yesterday though when we had this conversation. I said to her, "The earth is our mother, and we are all brothers and sisters. Just ask Mother Earth for what you need, even if it is money." My friend reacted badly to this, saying, "The earth is not conscious, it is not a being. The ancient natives prayed to mother earth because that is all they knew (pre 10,000 years ago). These days we have technology...." and she was basically saying that to go back to that 'philosophy' was to go backwards. Her attitude saddened me so much.

I don't think she holds any respect or understands native peoples and so I tried to explain about natural laws and how people in ancient times were actually highly spiritually evolved, but her reaction was, "I don't want to go backwards!"

Why would she have such a negative and arrogant reaction to something so simple and natural as the natural world?  Just wanted to share this experience with you, and perhaps others have had similar experiences? We can't force people to bite the whole apple at once...and we can't overwhelm people with information that sounds crazy to them. How do we get through to people such as these? - or perhaps does she need more lifetimes to realize these natural truths?

What you are describing is the essence of consensus mindset. 

And on up into individuated too, where the person is trying to overturn the hold of the superstitious past, belief in religions and all the things that have held the race back.  In that case, they have created science and technology as a new religion (although they rarely recognize that they have done this) that is going to save us from all the terrors and inequities of the past.  Often people with those views are atheists, rebelling against the religious tyranny of the past.  They have created Progress as a new religion.

In essence they have thrown the baby out with the bath water.  Its a phase its necessary for those Souls to move through.  They are seeing partial truth - they see the damaging hold that superstition and giving power away has had over much of humanity.  And they rebel against that, rightfully so.  The issue is, they have created a modern version of the same thing, yet another incomplete partial truth.  But they are not yet in a place where they see the limitations of the perspectives they've adopted.

Ultimately, somewhere along the line, they have to embrace a spiritual reality because that will represent the next step towards greater truth.  But that can be a very long journey.

Another thing you might consider is what unresolved hardships and traumatizations occurred to her during natural times and, even more so, during the transition into patriarchal times, that are the hidden memories that led to her attitudes.

"I don't want to go backwards!" is a very telling statement - its an emotional statement.  On a deeper level it is saying "I don't want to revisit the past".  Why?  Sometimes that is a tipoff to the forgotten, unresolved traumatic events from the past.  If the Soul has to remember the past it knows it will have to deal with painful issues its been avoiding forever.

One way to approach someone like that is to make it clear that revisiting the past does not mean we are going back to living in the jungle or in tipi's.  Rather, ask her to consider if its possible there might be anything at all of value from the past that has gotten lost with the transition into modern times, that might be worth rediscovering.  That she does not need to give up anything she now has to explore the past. 

Basically you are trying to find a place of receptivity to what lies beyond what she now knows, into an unknown.  You can ask her what she fears she will lose by investigating - what is the potential cost?  Fears are not rational, so if she responds with fear, ask her what she is afraid of.  And if she states some fears, ask her why does she think she has those specific fears.  Tell her what you are doing is the scientific method, to objectively examine and analyze what you find in her, to better understand it.  And that this is the method that is used to develop the technology and science she believes in.  You are applying that same methodology to objectively look into her inner emotional states.

In other words, creating a frame that is aligned with her worldview, that does not push her buttons.  Portions of your world view did push her buttons.  That causes her to shut down, ending any dialog.  If you really want dialog and to help her understand a bit more, you have to step into her world view and accept it as she sees it.  Then little by little perhaps you can help her expand from where she is now.
Steve

[Steve]

Hi Heather

I also was really wondering if Jeffrey ever did as much in depth writing about the evolutionary states if natural law were the norm rather than what has been written in both Deva and Jeffrey's books about the way it actually is now.  I can deduce and imagine and actually see it in action but I was also wondering if there was anything written by an evolutionary astrologer Jeffrey, Deva  specifically about the stages as they have given them, but as they would be if natural law and the feminine was integrated.  I hope I'm not being pushy, I'm just intensely dedicated to this portion of the teachings right now- natural law and the feminine expressed and integrated, I feel when I open to this view(feminine, natural law), I understand the whole system better, moving from the centre outwards.

I don't recall much written from the perspective you are asking about. What occurred to me as I read your post was, this would be a great thing for YOU to write - what evolutionary states looked like when natural law was the norm.  Writing like that might help you understand the evolutionary stages on deeper levels - intuitions could come through as you write.
Steve

[PamS]

Hi All,

I keep saying this but thanks for bring this up.  I have been mulling this around for awhile"¦ In terms of manifestation"¦Like Linda said to a friend pray for money and the earth will provide"¦. This confuses me, I know so many people who do this and no money comes.  I work with homeless teens and they pray for food and shelter and it does not come.  Im not saying manifestation does not work, I just think it is way vaster than people say.  This is what I was trying to talk about on Ari's healing thread.  I was wondering if maybe evolutionary stages have something to do with this.. I was thinking of people I know in 3rd stage indivuated and they are manifestors.  At that evolutionary stage it is the height of personal power.  I know some very successful artists in that stage they think it and it happens, the dharma of the evolutionary stage facilitates the life lessons of personal power and creativity.  In 1st stage spiritual, part of the humbling and smallness is that those rules do not apply any more, the dharma of the stage is that personal power and personal creativity don't work any more, larger forces are at work"¦. 

I had been struggling with some issues in my own life and a few of my friends just keep saying you can create anything you want..  I am not a negative person what so ever, but I feel the limits of what Im capable of and I was wondering if this is one of the differences between 3rd stage indivuated and 1st stage spiritual..  There are larger forces at work in our lives"¦.


Thank you for the conversations a real gift"¦

Blessings,

pam

[Dhyana]

Pam,

I am totally with you on that one.  My experience exactly!

About 20 some odd years ago, my mother, started to become a very well know and respected teacher and healer in the area I live  She had opened a very popular"new age" type healing center here in our area -- and so much of that was about manifesting...manifesting prosperity, manifesting health, manifesting a relationship, etc. etc. AND MANY WERE ABLE TO "MANIFEST" what they wanted --but not me!  It just did not work for me. And I was judged for that there. I mean, after all (they would think), "she is the daughter of the minister here and she is still sick, still borke, etc etc." Not only did it not work for me, it actually never resonated deep in my soul. Of course I wanted my life to have ease and comfort, but MORE and DEEPER, I just wanted the raw TRUTH.

Just felt to add that I sure know where you are coming from!

Dhyana

[stephen]

  Natural times were not uotopian.  Life was often hard.  Food could be scarce.  A tiger could eat your baby or your animals.  Lightning could strike your hut.  People lived in closer awareness of their dependency on nature for survival.  That created a natural humility, and a sense of banding together as necessary for survival.

  We can't force people to bite the whole apple at once...and we can't overwhelm people with information that sounds crazy to them.  How do we get through to people such as these?

  In that case, they have created science and technology as a new religion (although they rarely recognize that they have done this) that is going to save us from all the terrors and inequities of the past.

Hi All,

  As per the quotes above, I was given a book years awhile ago which I didn't read, just placed on the shelf, and then for some reason was suddenly drawn to it in the beginning of March this year.  It is named "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn, and has a completely different viewpoint on our so-called-modern society, and how it got to be the way that it is, told from the point of view of a Gorilla.  It has a completely different take on the Adam and Eve Myth, which is even just by itself worth the time to read.

  It is not EA, but seems to me to promote thinking/feeling within the 'natural law' viewpoint, and is possibly a good introduction to the distortions that we all live under without even knowing it.  However, even handing a book to someone doesn't mean they will read it until they are ready on some level (as it was with me).

  If anyone chooses to read it, please let me know if you think it speaks to you about natural law.  (I don't want to recommend it further for a 'natural law' concept to anyone if it doesn't seem to further that understanding.)  You could maybe just PM me on this board with your feedback, if you feel so inclined.


  Also, I was watching the DVD "Walking with Cavemen" just recently and while watching was struck over and over by the...well, the very rawness of life.  Man was just another animal in the food chain.  I would recommend this video also, for the changing viewpoint of 'Man' that it provides, as we struggled to 'control' nature.
  While watching the video, I found myself wondering if I was suddenly placed into those environments (they follow Man over millenia), how long it would be before I was eaten.  But, much more importantly, as I was considering how I would fare back then, I kept running up against many 'modern' assumptions that I did not know that I had.  I would highly recommend that Thought Experiment to anyone who chooses to watch this video.


  Thanks for this topic Heather!


Blessings,
Stephen

[Linda]

In other words, creating a frame that is aligned with her worldview, that does not push her buttons.  Portions of your world view did push her buttons.  That causes her to shut down, ending any dialog.  If you really want dialog and to help her understand a bit more, you have to step into her world view and accept it as she sees it.  Then little by little perhaps you can help her expand from where she is now.
Steve

Steve,

Thank you so much for your detailed reply that contains so many valuable ways in approaching and dealing with others' different world views.  This all goes back to reading an individual's chart in the context of their own evolutionary condition, and trying not to push their buttons that only causes them to shut down.

While this girl aspires toward BIG ambitions such as a huge home, property, enormous amounts of money, prestige, status and power...and a direct link to a masculine god who provides her with her material needs! - yet she still insists that she is 'spiritual.'  I need to avoid the temptation to get into a philosophical debate, and so perhaps there is a need to turn a blind eye to statements such as she is making.

I agree that it is important that an individual goes through the different stages - and that as EA astrologers we can't push them along to another level by promoting our own beliefs. And there is probably no value in explaining the difference between 'spiritual' and 'religious' to such a person?

I'd be very interested in hearing what you think Steve.

[Linda]

In terms of manifestation"¦Like Linda said to a friend pray for money and the earth will provide"¦. This confuses me, I know so many people who do this and no money comes.  I work with homeless teens and they pray for food and shelter and it does not come.  

Not only did it not work for me, it actually never resonated deep in my soul.

Hi Pam, Dhyana, Heather, Stephen and Steve:

Asking Mother Earth for anything at all came from Keisha Crowther, Little Grandmother - and I felt her words described natural truths, and were in line with the EA philosophy. The reference to asking for dollars came from Keisha in that the earth has always provided us with food, shelter, warmth, etc. Here is an extract:

"You are the creator of your world. What you give your thoughts to, what you give your emotions to becomes your reality.  We start creating our reality.  If I'm negative and think of negative things, my world's going to be negative. But the other side tells us we can ask for anything we want, whether it be dollars, whether it be your spiritualness, ask for what you want. Ask the Great Everything for what you want, but remember the key is to remember that you have a great I Am.  You are just a spark that came from the great God and Goddess. Remember who you are. You have a greater self. Tell that greater self what you need, what you want and do it with as much emotion as possible, because your emotion is your connect to your great I am. If you ask for anything without any emotion it will not come. Your emotion is your great self. So when you use emotion, when you feel how great it would be to have this thing that you are wanting, then it starts pouring down upon you. Do not be negative. Stay in the positive. What you give your emotion and thought to becomes your reality."

"Let us become one tribe, the Tribe of Many Colours from all continents, because we are brothers and sisters. We have one mother: our Mother Earth. Our sacred beloved mother. She is your mother and she is mine, and that makes me your sister. I love you. You are my family. You are all my relatives. I love you. If you want to be in the tribe of many colours, just love......Just see all of us as children of great god and goddess. Love your Mother Earth, and let's love each other and take care of one another. I love you. I love all of you....."

I hope I haven't gone too off-topic, but it's beautiful to see natural truths such as the above expressed like this!  And especially if one is in the 'spiritual' condition, I think it's a beautiful thing to ask Mother Earth to help us with our needs.  

[Elen]

Hi Pam,

I wanted to second what both you and Dhyana wrote.  My own sense/experience is that there is a real shift that starts to take place in 1st spiritual: from material to spiritual orientation.  I think in 1st spiritual you start to recognize, at least unconsciously, that material success is not what it's about anymore.  To the extent that one is aligning, in this stage, with the typical American orientation of material prosperity, I think the unconscious internal dilemma prevents it from manifesting.  I also think 1st spiritual energy is so focused on healing and purifying that the energies that 3rd individuated (and earlier stages) might be able to tap into for material prosperity might not be available for 1st spiritual.  The upshot, I think, is that, in terms of our journeys towards God, we need different things at different stages.  I think the experience of material prosperity is a really valid way of coming to appreciate God.  But then I think you have to go beyond that.  I'm not saying that 1st spiritual has to accept material poverty.  Just, the focus/emphasis and path to it all changes.  These are things I've been thinking about, too.  So these are some of my thoughts....

Interesting aside:  I was listening to a Bill Mahr tape in which he said he'd really like to try meditating - seems really interesting to him - but that he's afraid that if he starts to do it, he'll lose his mental edge - his connection with the ongoing thought streams that he relies on for his comedy/social commentary.  I realize this example isn't about material prosperity.  But to me it seemed like an interesting insight into 3rd individuated starting to look out onto 1st spiritual as a possibility - kind of wondering what it would be like, but not yet ready to go there yet.  Perhaps the analogy to prosperity would be letting go of desires for material prosperity and practicing "trusting God" or something like that.  Again, just some thoughts.  I may very well have mis-ID'd Bill Mahr's evolutionary state...

[Elen]

Just one quick addition: what I think I'm trying to say is that it is the ORIENTATION to material reality that changes.  To the extent that one's efforts are focused on material reality, I think in 1st spiritual it's just not going to work.  So NOT manifesting might be a really important part of the spiritual journey....Hope this makes sense/clarifies...


Addition:  one final thought:  might the whole idea of involution/evolution that EA identifies be a factor here?

[Linda]

Ellen,

I'm thinking that a consensus/individuated person would be concerned with material 'abundance' and 'success,' while a humble spiritual person would just wish to have their basic 'natural needs' fulfilled by Mother Earth.

[Elen]

Ellen,

I'm thinking that a consensus/individuated person would be concerned with material 'abundance' and 'success,' while a humble spiritual person would just wish to have their basic 'natural needs' fulfilled by Mother Earth.

Hi Linda,

Thank you for your reply and for your contributions to this thread.  I have really appreciated reading what you have written.  Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with what you say above.  For me the question (in my own mind) was: how does one understand the material/health troubles and crises that some people in 1st spiritual go through?  Then the question for me becomes: what is the evolutionary/psychological dimension to this/ what's going on here/ how can we explain it in a way that allows one to understand the experience in a way that is not about bludgeoning oneself or others over the head because they are "failing"?  (How can we be true friens to Job, so to speak.)  So then there is the question of transition: what happens along the way from point "A" (material consciousness) to point "B" ("humble spiritual" consciousness)?  That is what I was trying to get at in my thinking process.  Perhaps it does not make much sense.  I admit I was not feeling entirely clear when I was writing it....

Peace,
Ellen