practice determining the ea stage of a child

[ari moshe]

Wow these are amazing insights.

Rad, I'm really grateful that you shared that interpretation. In terms of evolutionary state, do you already have a sense of where he is at based on what I wrote? I feel confident in having ruled out consensus- just based on the nature of his open mindedness.

Ellen, thanks for sharing that info. In case you weren't already aware- 7 years of age, astrologically is roughly when the first Saturn square occurs. We can see that he just completed this earlier this past year. JWG teaches that at this stage of life the center of gravity (Saturn) of the ego shifts from mother, to which ever parent is socially deemed to have more social authority (tends to be father in this current patriarchy). Thus a social awareness begins to emerge, and the soul's own individuality, the ego it has created, begins to manifest itself in social behavior.

Given his chart, as I understand it, the semi-sextile between the sn and the Moon, with the Moon squaring Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th, all relative to the Pluto, it's aspects to Mercury and Jupiter, the ruler of the sn- we see that in prior lifetimes he had very clearly felt himself to be special, different- to inhabit this planet with a unique purpose- this has all translated into lacking a concrete social awareness of the world around him (gemini 11th house nn)- being blind in his own reality and expecting everyone else to go along with that. It seems he has been the source of abandonment for others, such as his own family and relationships, and lacked the DESIRE to learn how to listen to other people- as he was very absorbed in his own narcissism.

Whatever his ea stage is, it's clear that he comes into this life with displaced emotions, based on not getting the emotional support, validation, and social support for who he is. This lack of emotional support, attention and social support seems necessary to teach him a lesson which is to supply for his own emotional needs through true friendship and cooperation with others. Rad, was this an accurate understanding of the Moon relative to the evolutionary and karmic signatures of the chart?

So I share that because, at this time in his life, given to the first quarter Saturn square, he is beginning the face the limitations of his own consciousness relative to the social world that he lives in. And naturally, he's set it up to feel socially different, and to time and time again experience the negative effects of acting out of no consideration for others.

Also note that Cancer is intercepted in his 12th house, and of course so is Capricorn in the 6th. Both houses are ruled by his nodal rulers.
I think this points to a naiveté that all of his emotional needs would be taken care of. Cancer ruled by the moon which is squaring Neptune, which is sextile his sn- this translated into personal relationships, where there was very little effort made on his part to be emotionally available. Capricorn ruled by Saturn retro seems to say that a lesson in self improvement in this life is learning how to be a part of a community, there is a need to develop a more precise awareness of how his social reality is constructed, and to meaningfully participate in it as an equal with others (this is also indicated by the ruler of his sn full phase opposition to Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th).
He's going to have many brilliant ideas, the key is to share them with the world for the sake of helping others and improving the overall quality of life. In order to do that he's going to have to learn how to share these ideas in a way that other people respect him for who he is, not based on his expectations to be respected at all costs. (Mercury as ruler of nn conjunt Pluto which is conjunct sn in Sag in the 5th). I understand why Rad offered this Socratic approach, as this chart indicates that he simply doesn't know how to live in this world outside of his own box.

It's funny, as I look into his chart- even though I'm consciously attempting to interpret the basic archetypes w/out projecting an ea stage onto this soul- I find that I just intuitively feel that he is third stage individuated.

Rad do you, or anyone else have any suggestions as to how to deepen my intuition in this regard. Ways to validate it/ check it's accuracy? JWG recommended looking into the eyes of the child. I tried that, I'm not sure what I was able to pick up from that other than possibly individuated.

God Bless,
Ari Moshe

[Rad]

Hi Ari,

Wow these are amazing insights.

Rad, I'm really grateful that you shared that interpretation. In terms of evolutionary state, do you already have a sense of where he is at based on what I wrote? I feel confident in having ruled out consensus- just based on the nature of his open mindedness.

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Just based on what you have shared, although I would want to know more about the child, but based on what you shared I would say somewhere in the 3rd Stage Individuate. I would base that on his statement, when you brought up death with him, that he manifested a desire to find a way to stop death for people. That reflects a consciousness with the 3rd Stage individuated relative to being able to move social systems forwards in all kinds of ways, including medically of course. So just based on what you have shared it would be that. Also, another indicator of at least Individuated in general, was when you shared about him doing his own thing relative the group at camp, and being judged/ persecuted for it.

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Ellen, thanks for sharing that info. In case you weren't already aware- 7 years of age, astrologically is roughly when the first Saturn square occurs. We can see that he just completed this earlier this past year. JWG teaches that at this stage of life the center of gravity (Saturn) of the ego shifts from mother, to which ever parent is socially deemed to have more social authority (tends to be father in this current patriarchy). Thus a social awareness begins to emerge, and the soul's own individuality, the ego it has created, begins to manifest itself in social behavior.

Given his chart, as I understand it, the semi-sextile between the sn and the Moon, with the Moon squaring Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th, all relative to the Pluto, it's aspects to Mercury and Jupiter, the ruler of the sn- we see that in prior lifetimes he had very clearly felt himself to be special, different- to inhabit this planet with a unique purpose- this has all translated into lacking a concrete social awareness of the world around him (gemini 11th house nn)- being blind in his own reality and expecting everyone else to go along with that. It seems he has been the source of abandonment for others, such as his own family and relationships, and lacked the DESIRE to learn how to listen to other people- as he was very absorbed in his own narcissism.

Whatever his ea stage is, it's clear that he comes into this life with displaced emotions, based on not getting the emotional support, validation, and social support for who he is. This lack of emotional support, attention and social support seems necessary to teach him a lesson which is to supply for his own emotional needs through true friendship and cooperation with others. Rad, was this an accurate understanding of the Moon relative to the evolutionary and karmic signatures of the chart?

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Yes.

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Rad do you, or anyone else have any suggestions as to how to deepen my intuition in this regard. Ways to validate it/ check it's accuracy? JWG recommended looking into the eyes of the child. I tried that, I'm not sure what I was able to pick up from that other than possibly individuated.

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Only in the ways that I already wrote Ari.

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God Bless, Rad

[Rad]

Hi bluesky,

Hi Rad - I have a question about your analysis - how do you interpret this boy's sun being conjunct his south node?  Does this make his evolutionary lessons the central theme in his life, say as opposed to a chart where pluto may be "tucked out of the way", and therefore not so obvious?

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In his context it means that his Soul is bringing forwards from other lifetimes highly developed capacities and abilities that will serve as the very purpose of his life. One of the primary archetypal dynamics, or themes, that is being brought forwards correlates to his capacity to innovate and invent for the betterment of others. The evolutionary lessons for ANY SOUL correlate the the central theme of the Soul's life. When the evolutionary symbols in a chart, starting with Pluto, APPEAR to be 'tucked away' that will generally mean a Soul that has decided to take a rest, or break, from evolving. A time out so to speak. And there will always be reasons for that when you see or observe it in a chart/ person.

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God Bless, Rad

[bluesky]

thanks for the insight Rad.

[Elen]

Wow these are amazing insights.

Rad, I'm really grateful that you shared that interpretation. In terms of evolutionary state, do you already have a sense of where he is at based on what I wrote? I feel confident in having ruled out consensus- just based on the nature of his open mindedness.

Ellen, thanks for sharing that info. In case you weren't already aware- 7 years of age, astrologically is roughly when the first Saturn square occurs. We can see that he just completed this earlier this past year. JWG teaches that at this stage of life the center of gravity (Saturn) of the ego shifts from mother, to which ever parent is socially deemed to have more social authority (tends to be father in this current patriarchy). Thus a social awareness begins to emerge, and the soul's own individuality, the ego it has created, begins to manifest itself in social behavior.
Hi Ari,

Thanks so much for sharing this.  I forgot about the Saturn sq. at this age and certainly did not know about it in terms of the detail you provided.  This to me is a much clearer picture of this transition than anything I've read (which has not been much) and unmuddies some things for me; while his individuality was definitely seeming quite developed and strong, I was feeling unsure how much of that could be trusted (in my own mind) until I had a better understanding of how this transition (as described in the book I referred to) might be "coloring" a true expression of himself.  My sense now is that his individuality, as you describe it, is quite strong and pronounced, and is not at issue and (I am assuming I am right about this) there really isn't in him any uncertainty about who he is (would you say that this is correct?)


Given his chart, as I understand it, the semi-sextile between the sn and the Moon, with the Moon squaring Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th, all relative to the Pluto, it's aspects to Mercury and Jupiter, the ruler of the sn- we see that in prior lifetimes he had very clearly felt himself to be special, different- to inhabit this planet with a unique purpose- this has all translated into lacking a concrete social awareness of the world around him (gemini 11th house nn)- being blind in his own reality and expecting everyone else to go along with that. It seems he has been the source of abandonment for others, such as his own family and relationships, and lacked the DESIRE to learn how to listen to other people- as he was very absorbed in his own narcissism.
If he is 3rd Ind as Rad has suggested, moving beyond his own self-absorption would be a major dynamic for him, with the need for 3rd Ind to find constructive ways to participate in and better society.  If he has been 3rd Ind in prior lives, perhaps his way of bettering society was to be the autocratic (presumably wise and benevolent - I say this without looking at the chart) king.  However, his Soul chose the United States, suggesting that for further growth to occur, he must learn a new way of relating to others and a new way of integrating his purpose for the betterment of the collective... (I am intentionally not looking at the chart at this time as I am wanting to do this thinking as much as I am able just on the stages, how they might play out.... If my reasoning is in error, someone please correct it.  Thanks, Ellen


Whatever his ea stage is, it's clear that he comes into this life with displaced emotions, based on not getting the emotional support, validation, and social support for who he is. This lack of emotional support, attention and social support seems necessary to teach him a lesson which is to supply for his own emotional needs through true friendship and cooperation with others. Rad, was this an accurate understanding of the Moon relative to the evolutionary and karmic signatures of the chart?

So I share that because, at this time in his life, given to the first quarter Saturn square, he is beginning the face the limitations of his own consciousness relative to the social world that he lives in. And naturally, he's set it up to feel socially different, and to time and time again experience the negative effects of acting out of no consideration for others.

Also note that Cancer is intercepted in his 12th house, and of course so is Capricorn in the 6th. Both houses are ruled by his nodal rulers.
I think this points to a naiveté that all of his emotional needs would be taken care of. Cancer ruled by the moon which is squaring Neptune, which is sextile his sn- this translated into personal relationships, where there was very little effort made on his part to be emotionally available. Capricorn ruled by Saturn retro seems to say that a lesson in self improvement in this life is learning how to be a part of a community, there is a need to develop a more precise awareness of how his social reality is constructed, and to meaningfully participate in it as an equal with others (this is also indicated by the ruler of his sn full phase opposition to Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th).
He's going to have many brilliant ideas, the key is to share them with the world for the sake of helping others and improving the overall quality of life. In order to do that he's going to have to learn how to share these ideas in a way that other people respect him for who he is, not based on his expectations to be respected at all costs. (Mercury as ruler of nn conjunt Pluto which is conjunct sn in Sag in the 5th). I understand why Rad offered this Socratic approach, as this chart indicates that he simply doesn't know how to live in this world outside of his own box.

It's funny, as I look into his chart- even though I'm consciously attempting to interpret the basic archetypes w/out projecting an ea stage onto this soul- I find that I just intuitively feel that he is third stage individuated.

Rad do you, or anyone else have any suggestions as to how to deepen my intuition in this regard. Ways to validate it/ check it's accuracy? JWG recommended looking into the eyes of the child. I tried that, I'm not sure what I was able to pick up from that other than possibly individuated.

God Bless,
Ari Moshe

[ari moshe]

Hi Ellen,

If he is 3rd Ind as Rad has suggested, moving beyond his own self-absorption would be a major dynamic for him, with the need for 3rd Ind to find constructive ways to participate in and better society.  If he has been 3rd Ind in prior lives, perhaps his way of bettering society was to be the autocratic (presumably wise and benevolent - I say this without looking at the chart) king.  However, his Soul chose the United States, suggesting that for further growth to occur, he must learn a new way of relating to others and a new way of integrating his purpose for the betterment of the collective... (I am intentionally not looking at the chart at this time as I am wanting to do this thinking as much as I am able just on the stages, how they might play out.... If my reasoning is in error, someone please correct it.  Thanks, Ellen

I would say, that given his behavior, and w/out looking at the chart- it's clear that coming into this life, the soul naturally expects to be treated like a king. To me what you said makes a lot of sense.

In terms of choosing the united states- the inflated ego of the third individuated can manifest anywhere of course, and in this case if he was treated like a king in the past, this could have happened anywhere in the world w/out actually have been a literal king. He may have made some great discoveries in the past that brought him fame and esteem, to me this could have happened in the U.S.

Ari Moshe

[Elen]

Hi Ellen,

If he is 3rd Ind as Rad has suggested, moving beyond his own self-absorption would be a major dynamic for him, with the need for 3rd Ind to find constructive ways to participate in and better society.  If he has been 3rd Ind in prior lives, perhaps his way of bettering society was to be the autocratic (presumably wise and benevolent - I say this without looking at the chart) king.  However, his Soul chose the United States, suggesting that for further growth to occur, he must learn a new way of relating to others and a new way of integrating his purpose for the betterment of the collective... (I am intentionally not looking at the chart at this time as I am wanting to do this thinking as much as I am able just on the stages, how they might play out.... If my reasoning is in error, someone please correct it.  Thanks, Ellen

I would say, that given his behavior, and w/out looking at the chart- it's clear that coming into this life, the soul naturally expects to be treated like a king. To me what you said makes a lot of sense.

In terms of choosing the united states- the inflated ego of the third individuated can manifest anywhere of course, and in this case if he was treated like a king in the past, this could have happened anywhere in the world w/out actually have been a literal king. He may have made some great discoveries in the past that brought him fame and esteem, to me this could have happened in the U.S.
Good point, Ari.  Thanks.  Ellen


Ari Moshe

[Elen]

Hi Ari,

I'm wondering if you are still feeling that Max's evolutionary stage needs to be determined or if, given Rad's input, you feel pretty comfortable with your understanding of Max's stage...

Ellen

[ari moshe]

Hi Ellen,

I do intuit that he is third individuated- a soul who has been there for a while in fact. I don't see any signs of spiritual- and in correlation to his chart, there is nothing that indicates to me any kind of "hiding" that would mask that. And he is definitely not consensus.

However we can continue to explore this for the purpose of learning if anyone wishes.

Ari Moshe

[Elen]

Hi Ari,

I posted this a bit ago but the glitch I was experiencing a few days ago is back: my posts aren't posting and I believe I am not seeing new posts by others.  So I just want to try this again to see if it posts this time.

The upshot is that I would like to pursue this a little more for the sake of learning/practice and I am hoping that there might be others who also wish to participate - perhaps just posting their own assessment and reasoning (I don't think we'll get much disagreement about his stage).  I know that others are quite busy with other threads and other matters in their lives, so no expectations - just a wish.

I'm working on my own reasoning about Max's stage and will post that when I'm done.

Peace,
Ellen

[bluesky]

Hi, I would like to know why Max is considered 3rd individuated rather than 1st or 2nd (since Ari says he's neither consensus nor spiritual).  At his age, he hasn't had an opportunity/need to display 1st IND. (potential double life) or 2nd INV. (alienated, living on the fringes).

[Elen]

Hi, I would like to know why Max is considered 3rd individuated rather than 1st or 2nd (since Ari says he's neither consensus nor spiritual).  At his age, he hasn't had an opportunity/need to display 1st IND. (potential double life) or 2nd INV. (alienated, living on the fringes).

Hi bluesky,

I don't have a definitive answer to this but my own thinking is that he seems to have a very strong sense of self-identity and he reacts VERY strongly - to the point of verbalizing that he wants to kill those whom he feels are threatening this sense of self-identity.  I don't think 1st ind would 1) have such a strong sense of who they are and 2) react so strongly to protect their sense of self (1st Ind would be trying very hard to fit in).  I'd like to hear what Ari has to say...

Peace,
Ellen

[Elen]

Hi bluesky,

Re: 2nd Ind: I don't get the sense he's here, either.  He seems way too focused inwardly - trying to develop that - rather than outwardly - resisting the forces working against him.  His outbursts to me seem more the result of his own efforts to be fully absorbed in himself - his interests, mental pursuits, imagination, etc - being blocked/interfered with/etc.  To me it seems that 2nd Ind would not have reached such a level of deep inner absorption.  But I think you raise a good point about his age.  And I don't really have a sense yet how that factors in with someone so young.

Peace,

Ellen

[ari moshe]

Hi Ari,

I posted this a bit ago but the glitch I was experiencing a few days ago is back: my posts aren't posting and I believe I am not seeing new posts by others.  So I just want to try this again to see if it posts this time.

Oh Dear! Is this Mercury rx on your Virgo ac or something? Cool. I'm excited that we get to explore this more.

Hi, I would like to know why Max is considered 3rd individuated rather than 1st or 2nd (since Ari says he's neither consensus nor spiritual).  At his age, he hasn't had an opportunity/need to display 1st IND. (potential double life) or 2nd INV. (alienated, living on the fringes).

Here's my reasoning:
First individuated is about the process of indivduation itself. The soul evolves by gradudally realizing it's uniquness in relation to the consensus. Max, even though his parents are first individuated, and he is being raised in what I think is a second stage consensus world (Jewish orthodox camp for example) his self awareness expresses as a very clear and definitive sense of a revolutionary, global centric destiny (i.e. to find a cure for death...) He is also very interested in other cultures, other religions- when I ask him "what music should I play" he'll answer "African" or "Jazz" or "Indian" He is, on his own accord, very culturally aware- his consciousness is not limited to a fixed ethnicity- nor does he express any signs of social alienation for not being ethnocentric.

He does express signs of not fitting in. That is totally his life- he does not fit in to the status quo. However he isn't trying to fit in.
He does come into this lifetime with unresolved trauma. His behavior clearly indicates this. When he is attacked, suddenly fight or flight comes up. The boy literally becomes motionless and fixated on revenge. Like he is being consumed by a paralyzing anger.

When correlating to the chart, this is all indicated by the south node ruler in opposition to Uranus in Aquarius. Venus is the ruler of his 11th house- the house of his nn. And Venus, which is in Scorpio in the 4th, conjunct moon and Mars, squares Neptune in Aquarius in the 7th which is ruled again by Uranus, which leads us back to the south node via it's opposition to the ruler of the sn.

Does anyone feel that I excluded spiritual too soon?

Ellen,

Hi bluesky,

I don't have a definitive answer to this but my own thinking is that he seems to have a very strong sense of self-identity and he reacts VERY strongly - to the point of verbalizing that he wants to kill those whom he feels are threatening this sense of self-identity.  I don't think 1st ind would 1) have such a strong sense of who they are and 2) react so strongly to protect their sense of self (1st Ind would be trying very hard to fit in).  I'd like to hear what Ari has to say...

Peace,
Ellen

His desire to kill someone is actually because he perceives that he is being attacked. He literally perceives a reality that is a function of unresolved trauma. So I personally don't think this would be an appropriate justification for third individuated. First stage individuated does have an innate insecurity about not fitting in to the consensus, but it doesn't mean that every soul in first individuated will not be violent in the way that max is.

Ari Moshe

[bluesky]

Hi Ari and Ellen,

I am wondering too, if 1st spiritual should be excluded.

about the "wanting to kill"...my own opinion is that is 2nd individuated.  I say that because at a minimum, that stage is characterized by defensiveness (not necessarily a negative connotation, think self-defense) and I'm thinking that 3rd ind. would have better coping mechanisms...but he is still very young, so I think you would really have to know him, like do you do, Ari.

for what it's worth, I would put Max on the cusp of 2nd and 3rd individuated.  if this was true, he could easily move back and forth between them, displaying qualities of both.

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One more thing - Ari, do you notice any self-destructive tendencies in Max?