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zuma
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« on: Apr 11, 2009, 12:23 PM »

Hi Deva, Rad, and everyone else here

  I have questions about Venus. Specifically, I heard Jeffrey lecture years ago about how Venus correlates to our inner relationship to ourself and how that then connects to how we from relationships to other people. Something like that. I would like to know more about this if it is ok ? Thank you, Zuma
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Rad
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 13, 2009, 01:31 PM »

Hi Deva, Rad, and everyone else here

  I have questions about Venus. Specifically, I heard Jeffrey lecture years ago about how Venus correlates to our inner relationship to ourself and how that then connects to how we from relationships to other people. Something like that. I would like to know more about this if it is ok ? Thank you, Zuma

Hi Zuma,
 
  Yes, as far as I know Jeffrey was the first astrologer to teach about Venus' correlation to the inner relationship that all people have with themselves. He taught why Venus had a double rulership for the signs Libra and Taurus.  He said that Taurus and the 2nd House correlated to the inner relationship we all have with ourselves, and that the 7th House and Libra correlated to the types of outer relationships that we form with other people and why. He taught that the planet Venus, of itself, symbolized both the inner and outer relationships within the archetype of Venus itself. A simple example: if a person has, let's say, Venus in Virgo and their inner relationship to themself in one of intense criticism, all the things that are wrong with them, that it shouldn't then be surprising that that person would then 'attract', Venus, others who are then critical of them: the inner reflecting the outer. And that which we attract is a reflection of the inner vibration within us where that inner vibration is a reflection of our inner relationship to ourself.

  Or, for another example, let's say that Venus in Virgo person was inwardly experiencing a high degree of 'lack' in their lives which then leads to a sense of being 'empty' from within. That inner relationship to themselves could then manifest outwardly as needing, Venus, many other people in their lives in order to 'fill them up', and needing others to give to them that which they felt they were lacking.

  He talked about the natural inconjunct between the 2nd House, Taurus, and the 7th House, and Libra. He taught that this is the natural 'crisis' that exists in all of us that involves the need to be self-reliant and fulfilling our own needs, and how our needs can be projected onto others in such a way as to become dependent on others for the very needs that we need to satisfy within ourselves. And how our projected needs onto others correlates to 'expectations' that we can set up with other people. So what happens when our expectations  that are projected onto others does not occur ? For most some kind of crisis will occur where the intent of the crisis is to force the person back upon themselves so that self-reliance in some way can be developed when those expectations have reached a point of excessive dependency on others.

  He taught about the need for the EA astrologer to understand the totality of the Venus archetype. Thus, to not only  understand the the sign the Venus is in but all the aspects that it is making to other planets, the N. and S. Nodes of Venus in terms of what the past, present, and future of the evolving Venus archetype is in all charts, and to fully grasp the signs on the 2nd and 7th houses as they condition those natural archetypes, and the reasons for that conditioning relative to the ongoing evolutionary intentions of the Soul, and, lastly, the location of the planetary rulers of those signs and the aspects that they are making for the same reasons.

  Rad
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Kristin
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 13, 2009, 02:48 PM »

Thanks Rad..it is true I have never heard anyone talk about Venus like Jeffrey did, specifically the relationship with the self, ie inner side of Venus (2nd house/Taurus), and the natural inconjunct to the outer side of Venus (7th house Libra) how this impacts our realtionships with others. Also how he incorporated the nodes of Venus to show the bigger picture and the evolutionary intent.


Zuma..
Currently the planet Venus is retrograde in the sky, so you may be able to feel the nature of this archetype intimately, especially the inner side of Venus as it works to help you reconnect with yourself and through extension Spirit. It is a time where your Soul is getting in touch with what holds the most meaning and value. A time to reflect about whether you are getting your essential needs (inner side of Venus) met and a time when your Soul is in the process of making changes to support those values.

Venus just backed into Pisces. Venus is the lower octave of Neptune and Neptune is the ruler of Pisces, so as Venus slows down and slowly stations at the last degree of Pisces, many Souls are searching beyond what holds earthly meaning and searching for ULTIMATE meaning, which can only really be found within...God/Goddess (Pisces/Neptune).
This can also be a time when relationships (outer side of Venus) that are not matching what we need are ending, a time of culmination, Venus in Pisces, and also a time for healing the past, old wounds in relationships that have injured our inner relationship with ourselves, things being cleared so when Venus moves direct and back into Aries, we can be stronger in our self and more clear about our desires and needs (Venus in Aries) and as a result how to move forward with others.
As our inner relationship with our self changes, our vibration also shifts and this will then alter the nature of whom and what we attract.

Here’s to more love and less pain.

Kristin
« Last Edit: Apr 13, 2009, 02:58 PM by Kristin » Logged
Deva
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 14, 2009, 09:19 AM »

Hi Zuma, I also wanted to add the Venus correlates to the psychology of listening. Via the Taraus side of Venus our inner dialouge with ourself is all to often projected (Libra side of Venus) onto others in our relationships. To add to the Venus in Virgo example, the person could project the inner critical relationship/inner dialouge on to other in the form of "hearing" the other critisize or undermine them when this is not the case (the other may be trying to give helpful advice for example). The point is that via the Libra side of Venus we must learn to objectively hear and listen to others from their reality so we do not project in this way, and truly hear what is being said. If you Any more questions like that please ask, and you are sure to get great insight on the forum!
Deva
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Kristin
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« Reply #4 on: Apr 14, 2009, 02:40 PM »

Hi all..

Deva..Thanks for reminding us of the inner side of Venus also being the archetype of LISTENING and how those inner tapes may manifest in a Venus in Virgo archetype.

To take this one step further...Since Pisces is the polarity of Virgo, the Soul with Venus in Virgo as we know is always comparing themselves to perfection and often feeling the LACK to greater degrees (as Adina wrote about in the question Ari posted - 'defining the SOUL post' - with respect to Virgo).
The Venus in Virgo can be so self critical that this criticism then can be transferred to the partner, ie not just the self judgment trips or hearing another incorrectly but also then focusing on the partner's inadequacies versus their strengths, ie focusing on their lacks too.

It is impossible to love another (7th House) unconditionally until and unless one can learn to love themselves (2nd house) unconditionally first (wouldn't you agree?), which is the evolutionary intent with a Venus in Virgo ie. the polarity of Virgo being PISCES(unconditional LOVE)..


Peace...


« Last Edit: Apr 14, 2009, 03:07 PM by Kristin » Logged
zuma
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 16, 2009, 12:15 PM »

Kristin, Deva, and Rad

  Thank you so much for your answers. This is what I remember from what Jeffrey taught. I am wondering if we can develop this more by using chart examples to do so ? Please let me know.

 
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Deva
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 17, 2009, 11:44 AM »

That is a great idea, who is a good chart to post?
Deva
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Sajani
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 17, 2009, 12:23 PM »

Sounds like fun! If we want to approach it first from the Venus in Virgo archetype, here are a few famous people with Venus in Virgo: Leonard Cohen, Roger Federer, Julia Roberts, Sting, Vin Diesel, Carrie Fisher, Heather Locklear, Sean Penn, Robert Redford, John Lennon, and J.K. Rowling. And interestingly enough, BOTH Antonio Banderas and Melanie Griffith (who are married to each other) have Venus in Virgo!

Birth data for all can be found on the now-FREE astrodatabank web site: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Main_Page
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Rad
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 19, 2009, 08:58 AM »

Sounds like fun! If we want to approach it first from the Venus in Virgo archetype, here are a few famous people with Venus in Virgo: Leonard Cohen, Roger Federer, Julia Roberts, Sting, Vin Diesel, Carrie Fisher, Heather Locklear, Sean Penn, Robert Redford, John Lennon, and J.K. Rowling. And interestingly enough, BOTH Antonio Banderas and Melanie Griffith (who are married to each other) have Venus in Virgo!

Birth data for all can be found on the now-FREE astrodatabank web site: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Main_Page


Hi Sajani,

  Well why don't we go with Leonard Cohen. I think this would be a good choice because there is so much biographical information available on him, plus of course he lyrics within his songs. Can you post his birth chart here ? If you can please do and we can start this.

  Rad
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Sajani
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« Reply #9 on: Apr 19, 2009, 09:40 AM »

You must have been reading my mind, Rad. That's the one I would have chosen, too!  Smiley

Leonard Cohen: Sept. 1, 1934; 6:45 AM EDT; Montreal, QU, Canada. As I recall, Wolf said his evolutionary stage is 1st stage spiritual.



Biography from Astrodatabank:

Canadian novelist and songwriter-folksinger who became a Buddhist monk, shaving his head and living part-time in a monastery on Mount Baldy, outside of Los Angeles, CA. Cohen separated from his wife, Painter Suzanne Elrod, in the mid-'70s. Though he spoke for years of his interest in Zen, it was still a surprise to the establishment when the highly successful songwriter and poet left his finely tailored suits for modest robes, and Hollywood mansions for a small cabin with a narrow cot. The pop icon, whose classic takes include "Bird on a Wire" and "Suzanne," does the cooking for the small community.

Raised by a well-to-do couple in Montreal, Leonard grew up in a house filled with music. As he grew older, he enjoyed a wide range of musical styles from commercial country and folk to synagogue music. During his teens, he had his first stint with a country group, "The Buckskin Boys." As a student at McGill, he gravitated toward poetry and prose, eventually gaining acclaim in Canada for his poems and two novels. The books did not sell well, so for income, Cohen returned to songwriting. Judy Collins soon bought his "Suzanne" for her 1966 album, "In My Life." His creaky baritone was distinctive enough that he was signed to a record contract himself by Columbia with a debut album in 1968, "Songs of Leonard Cohen." Sales were modest but critics hailed the collection.

During a period of deep depression in the '70s, Cohen began to embrace Zen. Turning to a friend who had an aura of calm, he was introduced by the friend to an old Zen teacher. He found the spiritual training rigorous. For a time, he worked in both worlds, the commercial world of music and the spiritual world of striving, until he finally yielded completely and moved to the Zen Center.

Cohen stopped recording in 1992 and touring in 1993 when he moved up the mountain. With enough time, he is working on an illustrated book of poems and songs for a future album. His workroom contains an old computer and a synthesizer, tools for his music and his graphic art. He rises at 3:00 AM for morning meditation and to begin preparing the day's menu. His graceful, confessional songs have been described as "elegant, bittersweet mood music for the dark nights of the soul." A tribute album was released by A&M Records on 9/26/1995, "Tower of Song."

For his worldly involvement, Cohen heads down the mountain to visit his daughter in the Wilshire district or his son, Adam, who began making his own mark in the music field in 1998 at the age of 25. In July, Adam released his debut album, "Adam Cohen," to critical applause.
« Last Edit: Apr 19, 2009, 11:07 AM by Steve » Logged
Rad
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« Reply #10 on: Apr 20, 2009, 12:58 PM »

OK ..............

 So for those of you who want to work with the Venus archetype as applied to the birth chart of Leonard Cohen let's start by analyzing his inner relationship to himself, and what his 'inner dialog' is about. After we do this we will then move on to the next step: the types of external relationship that he forms and why those types of relationships. From there we will discuss how he goes about supplying his own needs that can lead to self-reliance, and how he goes about supplying his external needs and what those needs are. Within that we can discuss how he 'hears' other people. So for those that wish to do this let's have a go at it !

 Rad
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ari moshe
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« Reply #11 on: Apr 21, 2009, 07:50 PM »

wow, i really like that method of analyzing venus. im excited to give it a shot...

let's start by analyzing his inner relationship to himself, and what his 'inner dialog' is about.
he desires to purify all aspects of himself in order to serve life. the inner dialog is about issues with ego and guilt of being separate from source. at his evolutionary state, there is a longing to devote himself to Truth in order to actualize his core values of devotion and service. the inner dialog is between his desire to adopt a value system that will applow for a complete surrender to the cause of truth, but simultaneously feeling too dirty and unfit for that.

After we do this we will then move on to the next step: the types of external relationship that he forms and why those types of relationships.
As a result, he will naturally attract relationships in which he can in some way actualize his need to find perfection and harmony with existence. Bc of his inner needs for perfect surrender- his relationships with people will bring out all tendencies of escapsim in which he is not actually relating with other- but rather relating to a deified other that he NEEDS to serve in some way. he may attract people that are highly critical/abusive of himself, or others that need him in some way, or others that force him to create more SELF DEFINITION and awareness of how he uses serving/fixing others to find greater self-adequacy. ultimately, his relationships are meant to show him the way to a higher path of intimacy. in this higher path is the recognition that to be in harmony with his spiritual values, he must learn how to flow with CONSTANT adjustment in order to understand the difference between who/what he thinks he is relating to in AND who/what he is actually relating to.

From there we will discuss how he goes about supplying his own needs that can lead to self-reliance, and how he goes about supplying his external needs and what those needs are.
eventually he has learned to take space and time in order to know himself and not get lost in someone else's or some sort of cause that doesn't truly reflect his higher spiritual values. Self reliance for him is linked to spiritual integrity. finding himself getting closer everyday, step by step towards purified integrity. creating healthy boundaries in which he can devote himself to a spiritual cause that is not a sole creation of his need for perfection. boundaries, patience and knowing how to let things be as they are are key.


Within that we can discuss how he 'hears' other people

depending on where he's at in his process- he may hear people relative to his desire to be of use/service. when others relate to him, he will naturally project his need to sacrifice himself, martyr himself, give himself entirely to serve other. he will see other as either chastising his imperfectness, or he will see other as needing/expecting him to help them in some way. he is learning how to hear other in complete neutrality, such that he can really help when and where it is appropriate- all the while maintaining balanced healthy exchanges.

i just read a bit more about him in wiki- (im not too familiar with him) and it seems that social justice was a big one for him (aquarius leo nodes) he's 74 and started touring last year after 15 years!
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Deva
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« Reply #12 on: Apr 23, 2009, 09:15 AM »

Hi, I wanted to add that with Venus conjunct the Sun (planetary ruler of the South Node) and Neptune in the 12th house the dyanmic of "seeing the best" or the "potential" in other and wanting the other to be that, or actualize that (Venus in the 12th conunct the Sun) mostly likely lead to some very painful dissolutionments within relationships. Prehaps he was "hearing" the other from the standpoint of the other wanting to actualize themselves as well, and that the otehr wanted to change patterns that were damaging/destructive in nature. The idealism that ari is talking about was project upon him as well, and the dissolutionment occured when the partner did not want to accept him as he was (Pisces moon in the 6th house opposing his Neptune/Venus/Sun in Virgo. In other words, the partner most likely "esacped" facing these issues through creating yet another realtionship. The dynamic of discrimation (6th house Pisces Moon opposing the Stellum of Virgo planets in the 12th) is critical, and of knowing who to serve and whom not. Establishing a primary relationship with the Divine is emaphasized, and of course will be the only way that the ultimate meaning that he is seeking will be found, and that self-reliance within relationships will manifest. Certainly his music/art/poetry was a way of connecting with the creater, and being of service to others.
Deva 
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Kristin
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« Reply #13 on: Apr 23, 2009, 12:16 PM »

hi guys..

good sharing Ari and Deva....

Yes...Venus in Virgo is about learning DISCERNMENT with who he gives his heart
(and pocket book to - Venus does rule $)

There can be such a natural innocence with Venus in the 12th..the feeling of EVERY TIME IS LIKE THE FIRST TIME. This is true in love and in loss..LIKE HE NEVER SEES IT COMING..

He has been burned over and over not only in love but in his finances too..so his relationships with all people. Venus rules the second house..finances... Venus in the 12th conjunct Neptune ..innocently trusting others..seeing the good and the God in others..The necessary lesson now to learn to discriminate between who has his best interest at heart and who has their own interest in mind.
Money has gone through his hands like water..12th house/Neptune..I think I recall hearing this had been a repeating pattern with him, someone who earned a great deal yet had nothing to show for it because he had literally been robbed...stripped down to nothing....maybe also this was necessary in order to force the focus IN..to depend 1ST on that SOURCE of sustenance..nothing in the outside world to hold onto..I know he spent time in retreat at zen monastery years ago and remember Wolf saying he ended up living at one...

also the lesson to SEE PEOPLE CLEARLY..


Kristin
« Last Edit: Apr 24, 2009, 08:20 AM by Kristin » Logged
Sajani
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« Reply #14 on: Apr 25, 2009, 10:58 AM »

Good observations, everyone.  I’d like to add that Cohen’s Venus rules his 9th, and Neptune and Venus are in a balsamic semi-square to Jupiter in Libra in 1, so Cohen’s inner relationship with himself, in relation to his belief systems is in an utterly mutational phase, and thus the back and forth, back and forth, between relationships (Neptune also rules the 7th) and solitude (Neptune/Venus – the lower octave of Neptune both in 12).  These symbols also point to his need to return to an understanding of the NATURAL God, rather than the patriarchal one we’ve all been conditioned by. This would lead to an acceptance of himself because of knowing that even god isn’t perfect, so he doesn’t have to be. Once he accepts himSELF, of course, his relationships with others will change.

I also feel he is coming from some lifetimes where he lived in monasteries and ashrams, etc. (Neptune,Venus, Sun all in 12, Sun ruling S Node and Mars in 11), probably in a leadership position (Pluto in Cancer in 10 in crescent semi-square to Venus/Neptune in 12), thus it takes incredible self-effort to enter INto intimate (Pluto) relationships with others – to leave behind the past of these lifetimes of isolation (12th house planets, and Venus ruling 2) IN those ashrams. If I remember correctly, the crescent phase is what wolf called the “burr under the saddle,” so in this case, that burr creates discomfort within intimate relationships, which then drives him back within himself and/or a monastery, etc.

There’s one “psalm” (in particular) in his autobiographical book, Book of Mercy, that I think speaks to what I’ve written above: 

“I lost my way, I forgot to call on your name. The raw heart beat against the world, and the tears were for my lost victory. But you are here. You have always been here. The world is all forgetting, and the heart is a rage of directions, but your name unifies the heart, and the world is lifted into its place. Blessed is the one who waits in the traveler’s heart for his turning.”
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