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Author Topic: Libra- Understanding the whole Archetype  (Read 5368 times)
PatriciaW
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« Reply #45 on: Oct 06, 2010, 08:20 AM »

Hi Linda... From my perspective we are all working thru our karmas in our day to day life, and even though evolution happens..for some it can be long and slow. Ones Evolutionary state has an effect upon how readily they respond to the divine hints. Cataclysmic events for sure can speed up that process :-)

Personally I feel in our society too many people try to work things out in their heads only.... in fact they live in their heads mostly. This is a patriarchal bias...that the mind (masculine), specifically left brain- logic and linear thought is superior to the emotions and body (feminine). When that left brain approach is the only thing engaged, I feel that is when you see people spinning their wheels, stuck in the same rut. That left brain 'monkey-mind' can spin out all sorts of rationalizations, while not addressing or even FEELING what is really going on.. This is the main problem with most people they are in DENIAL of thier feelings. That is why Cognitive-Behavioral therapy takes years (which is the standard form of therapy in the US) and worse they medicate to numb the emotions.This is what we as healers and counselors need to be aware of and work to bypass...to get to the soft underbelly of any given complex. The left brain will override the emotional response...this is the illness of western society, which is mainly reductionist and rationalistic. ( I could on about this for days!!!)
 
This is what DH Lawrence had to say on healing...

"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections. And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.  I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self and wounds to the soul take a long, long time, only time can help and patience, and a certain difficult repentance, long difficult repentance, realization of life's mistake, and the freeing oneself from the endless repetition of the mistake which mankind at large has chosen to sanctify."

Is it possible that the need for healing oneself has also been pushed down into the unconscious?  Perhaps it would take stronger medicine:  like a Pluto transit, or a cataclysmic event to bring about change?

Is wanting a fulfilling relationship a healthy and normal desire?  That the person would be willing to "work" through it (Saturn in Libra), to do what it takes to fulfill that desire?


This points to the basis of EA and other forms of soul healing work..only soulful means, can heal soul wounds. And yes if the souls desire to break a pattern is engaged, then that will become the leading edge.... one might say astrologically that this is the meaning of a Pluto transit..to engage the soul.  As EA counselors, that is our challenge and gift we have to offer ...how to speak to that spark... Since EA is a Plutonian based paradigm... thats what we do...engage the soul..

In my healing work I deal very little with the left brain as regression goes directly to emotions and the subconciouss. The left brain only comes in later, after the expereince, to help integrate the expereince.  JL Moreno ( the founder of psychodrama) would only let his clients talk 'about' their problems for 5 minutes..then he would say "Show me", "Act it out"..that was his way of bypassing the left brain and engaging the body and emotions....based on the understanding that the experience of something is greater than the knowledge of it. In astrological counseling work I use imagery a lot, as that engages the right brain. Hint....two very simple ways to evoke an image when someone is talking 'about' a problem is to get them to describe it with a simile ( It's "as if"....  or "It's like"....)

So using the example of your friend who is working thru her pattern , one can ask her...to FEEL what it was/is that motivated her to become involved with this guy. Lets imagine a response that she feels a deep longing  inside... ok...great...feel that longing and then It's "as if... ?" She responds "I'm a little girl reaching out for daddy, as he's walking away from me" ... in my work I would have her put out her arms, reaching and FEEL that little girl..now we are close to the root of the issue.  It is the wounded little girl ( past or present life) that is holding the complex, not her adult self and often the emotion comes right away. And then I will work from there. Too much to describe how to work thru imagery etc.. here..and waaaay off track ;-0 I did a lecture at last years NORWAC and designed imaginal Pluto journeys thru the archetypes of the possible generations i had at the lecture (Cancer-Scorpio). The journeys were designed to evoke the core issue of each, with an image and a feeling. And then we worked to transform the image. I was amazed at how the participants took to these little 5 minute journeys and how profound they felt it was. I am considering doing a Cd Book of them. The psyche is soooo creative and works on it's own healing (homeopathic principle) if given the right stimulus and container. Speaking of containers....

I also want to point out that the way you are engaged with your friend is, I assume, as a friend. And even though friends ask friends for advice.. they rarely enact it as readily as they would if it comes from someone who they have sought out to do a session with.  Personally, I keep my friends, family and clients in separate categories ;-0
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #46 on: Oct 06, 2010, 08:27 AM »

Ok...getting back on track....I only have until next Wed, then I will be travelling again...
Is there more we want to cover in the Libra archetype or should we pass the baton to someone who wants to moderate Scorpio?
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Steve
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« Reply #47 on: Oct 06, 2010, 12:49 PM »

Hi Linda

I read your response and questions to Patricia and wanted to share a few thoughts about it.

...
I have spoken to people who are fully aware of the frozen PATTERN as well as the need for HEALING.  It seems that when informing the client of all the Libran dynamics, patterns, and reasons for change and healing, that they will completely agree and understand......yet they continue to repeat the pattern (!).  The pull of the unconscious need, longing and expectation for the Libran "relationship dream," is still operative, and still SO entrenched.  I suppose the astrologer would have to keep drawing attention to the lessons....and this could very well take a long time....so that the patterns would SLOWLY begin to improve and change over time.

Is it possible that the need for healing oneself has also been pushed down into the unconscious?  Perhaps it would take stronger medicine:  like a Pluto transit, or a cataclysmic event to bring about change?

The answer to these questions to me involves Neptune, the higher octave of Venus, Libra's ruler.

Patricia said she equates "the Libran type as 'Fantasy Bonds' ( more wistful, dreamy, longing, full of unrealistic expectations and promises) ".  To me that is the Neptunian higher octave of Libra's ruler, Venus, in action.  We are seeking to fulfill all those empty places within us, projecting (Libra) their idealistic resolution onto a mere mortal, who can never live up to all that entails.  Scorpio kicks in after we have drawn that person into our life close enough to see all the ways they are imperfect and are not going to live up to our idealistic yearnings of what someone could be.  This can gradually trigger the Neptunian archetype of disillusionment, a very difficult experience.  That is the natural inconjunct between the 7th and 12th houses, inconjuncts having a Virgo-like crisis element to them.  Potentially bringing growth through the analysis of what the crisis is and what its growth intentions are.

Disillusionment - "dis" means "take away".  Thus the actual intent is to remove illusions.  When illusion is gone more of actual reality is seen.  However we are quite attached to our illusions, and their loss is often experienced as painful.  Then in good Neptunian style we tend to feel like a victim, either of the other person's failings, or of the unfairness of life to which we have been subjected, rather than taking responsibility for having created and believed in things that were only partially real and only partially possible in the first place.

I learned on my own journey that "when the pain of staying the same grows stronger than the fear of changing, the person starts doing the work".  And the pain of disillusionment (Neptune), or loss (Scorpio), is often what it takes to overcome the fear of changing.  

The root of fear of changing is the Cancer principle that we experience emotional security from the certainty and constancy of what we already know - the past (South Node), the present (Moon).  That is why the Libran mentally understands the necessary process and what they need to do, yet doesn't do it. The idea of change is easy.  The process of changing can be painful and at times scary.  Much easier to stay the same than risk (a cardinal quality) actually doing it.   Libra squares Cancer.  

I'd add to this a deeper element of the person not embracing the necessary change is, despite how loudly they may complain about the pain and the dysfunction, they just are not done with the experience - goes back to separating desires.  In fact, often the whining about how bad it is is an integral part of the self-image (Cancer) that has developed - a sort of feel-sorry-for-self attitude that sustains the whole thing.  It is not until they are absolutely totally thoroughly sick of the present reality that they will finally embrace the need to change.   Until then what you are having is progressive dissatisfaction.  Gradually progressive dissatisfaction may become unbearable enough that they will jump in and start the change process.

Most of us here have experienced our own versions of this in our lives.  Thus we are aware of its difficulties and so have empathy with the client.  However we have also experienced our own b.s., the stories we tell ourselves to not embrace what is necessary.  Therefore we need to discern whether the client is truly ready to do the work or is just whining one more time.  It is not compassion to enable someone's dysfunction of not acting.  Some people need to hear it ten times and then, given what's going on in their life they will begin action.  Others you could talk to 100 times and it will not change.  Of course, its not always easy to recognize which is which.  Most of us here come from the place of wanting to do the work.  We tend to project that onto others, giving them the benefit of the doubt.  It is not always so.

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Is wanting a fulfilling relationship a healthy and normal desire?  That the person would be willing to "work" through it (Saturn in Libra), to do what it takes to fulfill that desire?

Many people want a fulfilling relationship.  The variable is how you define fulfilling.

Are you together because you want to have fun with someone, don't want to be alone, because you deeply love them?  In the deepest sense none of those go deep enough to, in the end, sustain as fulfilling.

JWG talked about karma mates and soul mates, soul mates being people who had, prior to the relationship, already learned to stand on their own two feet and not expect a partner to complete them or be perfect.

He talked about the actual reason for having spiritual relationship is none of the reasons I listed above, but to support each other in deepening their individual relationships with divinity first, not just the relationship with each other.  In other words, a form of devotional worship of communion with divinity through the medium of the personal relationship.

My feeling is, soul mates are former karma mates.  Karma mates are those who have other reasons for being together, typically related to unresolved needs and wounds of various sorts.  You spoke of "frozen in the past" and that is how I'd say this carries out.   People bring their frozen places into their relationships.  And rather than thawing them out, they want to sustain them.  Because opening them can be quite painful.   And not opening them can just add to the already existing wounds, which pretty much anyone who's ever been in a relationship can attest to.  The karma mates move the ball forward in any given life as far as they can.  Most typically one wants to grow more than the other.  The one who wants growth, eventually, will either decide to leave the relationship (creating potential experience of betrayal and abandonment for the other) or else dig in and choose to accept not growing, unwilling to give the relationship up (often because of the Cancer security principle), yet develop an ongoing sense of frustration with the other, from the feeling of being held back, which they are voluntarily accepting.

Those dramas repeat and repeat from life to life as we meet the same people again and again.  Until finally, in some life, they meet and have both done the necessary work prior to the meeting, in this and prior lives, to the point they can move into the soul mate condition of self-reliance and not emotional dependency, priorities straight, desire nature evolved to the point that personal relationship with divinity is priority #1.    

Those soul mate relationships have as many challenges at times as any other - people are people and we all bring our pasts and preferences into everything we do.  The difference is they will be able to develop a different approach to dealing with the challenges, based on the reasons for their relationship - the commitment to developing spiritual depth first and foremost.  

Thus "fulfilling" has a lot to do with the partner that is picked - the two people must be in somewhat similar evolutionary stage and already committed, prior to getting together, to doing inner work and growing the individual inner spiritual connection.  Reality is there are not a lot of people around who have evolved to the place where they are capable of that kind of relationship.   None the less, they do exist.  Such people will have, prior to entering the relationship, developed a basic personal emotional and spiritual self-sufficiency.

Nowadays personal growth is a very hip thing - millions have read books and go to workshops.  Going to workshops and reading books, speaking the language of growth work,  is not the same as actually doing the growth work.  Many people have the language mastered.  They speak the right words.  The only way to know if someone is living it is by observing their life. Otherwise you get the Libran thing, talk a good game.  When it gets intense they are not operating from the places their words convey.  

I accept their words are quite likely ideals and aspirations. They are not yet fully integrated into the person's life, into who they are, however.   Who lives it and who talks about it has to be learned through observation, and trial and error.  

There is an excellent chapter in Pluto Vol 2 (the Pluto relationship book), chapter 5, Essential Relationship Needs, which has what is to me brilliant material about the relationship between the 2nd and 7th and 12th houses - this relates to the Venus and Neptune stuff I've described here, how we project our yearning for divinity onto human partners and expect them to live in idealized ways we see as perfect, relative to our own core needs (Taurus/2nd house).  This covers the essence of what I've described here in more depth.  I highly recommend it.
Steve
« Last Edit: Oct 06, 2010, 06:42 PM by Steve » Logged

Linda
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« Reply #48 on: Oct 06, 2010, 02:41 PM »

Patricia and Steve,

Thank you both SO much - everything you wrote is so helpful in understanding how and why one is either willing to cooperate with change, or not.  

This page in the thread is outstanding! (as are the others).  And no doubt much food for thought as we move into the Venus Rx period.

It's just so wonderful learning from such experienced astrologers/counselors such as yourselves.  

Many thanks indeed!
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #49 on: Oct 06, 2010, 04:30 PM »

Wonderful Steve..thanks for chiming in!!!

The root of fear of changing is the Cancer principle that we experience emotional security from the certainty and constancy of what we already know - the past (South Node), the present (Moon).  That is why the Libran mentally understands the necessary process and what they need to do, yet doesn't do it. The idea of change is easy.  The process of changing can be painful and at times scary.  Much easier to stay the same than risk (a cardinal quality) actually doing it.   Libra squares Cancer.


Further to that thought for me,  is the difference between being in the emotions (Cancer) or the head (in the Librain way of idealistic fantasy)...

Would you be willing to moderate the Scoprio thread?
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Steve
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« Reply #50 on: Oct 07, 2010, 08:13 AM »

Hi Pat

Further to that thought for me,  is the difference between being in the emotions (Cancer) or the head (in the Librain way of idealistic fantasy)...

I agree with that. And I see that adding in the elements (water, air) reveals even greater significance to the square between 4th and 7th.  And points out the T square between 1st, 4th and 7th, and why the Libran has difficulty moving to the Aries polarity.

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Would you be willing to moderate the Scoprio thread?

Deva is going to moderate Scorpio.  I'll add my thoughts too.
thanks,
Steve
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_will
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« Reply #51 on: Oct 07, 2010, 01:14 PM »

Patricia, Steve, Linda, and everyone who contributed to this thread - thank you so much for your incredible insight on Libra...it's truly a blessing to be able to learn from and participate in this with you all.

Will
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ari moshe
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« Reply #52 on: Oct 17, 2010, 11:24 AM »

Hi everyone,
Just veiwed this beautiful, touching, clip about the Hindu saint, Ammachi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tysCHF57uYc&feature=player_embedded

To me, she exemplifies the natural, undistorted relationship between Libra and Pisces. This soul has a Libra Sun, with a Saturn Neptune conjunction in Libra in the 12th squaring the nodes.
Love
Ari Moshe
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Linda
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« Reply #53 on: Oct 24, 2010, 08:35 PM »

Oooops, almost forgot......


          Archetypes for the sign of Libra
                         (by Patricia Walsh)

The "other"
Social
Objective awareness        
Relationships
Comparison
Others' needs
Projection
Pleasing others
Listening
Extremes
Polarity

Denial
Mask
Relativity
Relatedness
Co-dependency        
Choices
Flirt
Beauty
Surface
Shallow
Half-truths

Boundary less
Social Grace
Partner
Damaged trust    
Intimacy
Casanova
Philanderer
Idealism
Appearance


« Last Edit: Oct 24, 2010, 08:44 PM by Linda » Logged
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