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Author Topic: How much can we actually offer with no birth time?  (Read 1993 times)
Dhyana
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« Reply #15 on: Oct 09, 2010, 06:27 PM »

...South Node aspects? Strong Neptune signatures to the SN, etc etc?  I just am mentioning a couple here because I honestly could not believe how much the description and advice you offerred Ellen resonated at my core and my Pluto is not anywhere near the 12th House.

Not to mention that I have heard a couple descriptions like this before from others, who also do not have a 12th house Pluto???

Dhyana
« Last Edit: Oct 09, 2010, 06:29 PM by Dhyana » Logged
Dhyana
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« Reply #16 on: Oct 09, 2010, 06:30 PM »

Ari,
Thank you VERY much!  You always have such good timing.
Love,
Dhyana
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Elen
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 09, 2010, 07:31 PM »

Hi Steve,

Thank you.  Extremely, extremely helpful.  My life in fact has been a "frozen" life throughout most of my adulthood.  I am really starting to emerge now - slowly, but it is clear that is happening - and it is very much about me realizing that I have to be me regardless of what others think - and also about me very consciously seeking out people who actually see me (this is a huge realization).  Thus my connection to the 11th house description.  Interesting - and confirmation of the Pluto house bottom line - as soon as I posted my last question, the old (and very familar) feelings of loneliness began emerging (thought I'd gotten past all that!).  So I see what you mean now.  Indeed, I have spent most of my childhood trying to escape that feeling and most of my adulthood trying to lick it. 

But I'm still not sure I'd know how to ferret this out were I working with someone else...  I mean, I'd show them the descriptions.  They'd say they related to one of the houses most.  Ok.  Then what?  I'm not getting that.  I wouldn't have their chart to show them where their bottom line really was.  I would be trying to figure that out...

Any thoughts?

Ellen
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Steve
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« Reply #18 on: Oct 10, 2010, 12:02 AM »

Hi Ellen

But I'm still not sure I'd know how to ferret this out were I working with someone else...  I mean, I'd show them the descriptions.  They'd say they related to one of the houses most.  Ok.  Then what?  I'm not getting that.  I wouldn't have their chart to show them where their bottom line really was.  I would be trying to figure that out...
Any thoughts?

I use Solar Fire.   I would start with Noon chart on the birth date, and the use SF's Dynamic chart feature that allows me to set the "Step by" to hours, and move the time forwards and backwards until I have positioned Pluto in the 12th house (if that is the house they selected).  Once I have it in the right house I switch the time step to Minutes and move things around until I feel I have a good fit for the rest of the planets.  Over the course of the two hours (plus or minus) that Pluto will be in the 12th house, the south node may change houses.  So I would either ask additional questions or look at their second choices of archetypes they identified with.   If the SN could be in either 4th or 5th when Pluto is in the 12th, I'd see if their other answers sounded more Cancer like or Leo like.  If neither I'd ask them cancer and leo questions and see which they most identified with.  By that point you are limiting the range of which houses the planets will be in.  If you determine 5th house SN and the Moon, say, could be in two houses with Pluto in the 12th and SN in the 5th, then ask further questions about whether they have a 7th or 8th house moon, for example.  By that point you have the chart you will be working with.  Often you only need to go one or two levels because the changes are relatively minor.  Meaning, if you have the evol signature (pluto / nodes / rulers) pretty clear, it doesn't make that much difference if Mercury might be 2nd or 3rd house.   Yes, it matters, but the evol signature is most important.

If you don't have Solar Fire and work with Astrodienst, you have to change the birth time with trial and error and back into the appropriate birth time.  It is more work to do it that way but it will still work. 

Is this clear?
Steve
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Elen
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 10, 2010, 07:25 AM »

Hi Steve,

Thank you so much for your answer.  I do understand that part.  What I'm asking is a little different.  Using me as an example, if I came in for a reading but didn't know my birth data and you showed me the descriptions of the houses, I would have chosen the 11th, which is not where Pluto is in my chart (but we, of course, wouldn't know that).  So my question is, how do you REALLY figure out which house is truly the bottom line.  Again, in my example, I would have chosen 11, but in fact 12 is my bottom line.  Without birth data, all we have to go on is what I say most resonates.  But that's wrong.  I'm resonating not with the bottom line, but with something that is the result of the bottom line.  Does my question makes sense?  How would you determine that the house that a person chooses is in FACT the bottom line house?

Peace - and thanks for your patience,
Ellen
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bluesky
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« Reply #20 on: Oct 10, 2010, 08:48 AM »

I would like add my own experience with level of awareness of bottom line pluto placement - I had a couple of readings with JWG a long while back, and during one of them we talked about the actual placement of pluto in the chart.  I told him I much more strongly (at that time) identified with the pluto in another house - he said "that actually makes sense, that's where your mars is".  so I was actually responded to the lower octave planet more than pluto.
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Steve
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« Reply #21 on: Oct 10, 2010, 09:22 AM »

Hi Ellen

Using me as an example, if I came in for a reading but didn't know my birth data and you showed me the descriptions of the houses, I would have chosen the 11th, which is not where Pluto is in my chart (but we, of course, wouldn't know that).  So my question is, how do you REALLY figure out which house is truly the bottom line.  Again, in my example, I would have chosen 11, but in fact 12 is my bottom line.  Without birth data, all we have to go on is what I say most resonates.  But that's wrong.  I'm resonating not with the bottom line, but with something that is the result of the bottom line.  Does my question makes sense?  How would you determine that the house that a person chooses is in FACT the bottom line house?

Well, you can't know for certain if the house they choose is the actual bottom line without a chart, and if you had a chart you wouldn't have to go through this process. 

You can't know for certain if the chart is accurate with any rectification process. 

For that matter, you can't know for certain if many birth times you are given are accurate.  I see an out of proportion number of birth times of 7:00 or 3:30 (rounded times).  I've been given birth times that came from the person's mother, and they discover 2 years later that mom had been off by 6 hours and 13 minutes! 

The key with EA work is keeping in mind that what we are really doing is READING THE PERSON'S SOUL, not just the piece of paper that is their birth chart.  And much of that is intuitive, not logical.

Let's use you as an example.  You strongly identified with the 11th house archetypes rather than your actual 12th house Pluto.   This says to me there is a strong need in you to individuate, to throw off past guilt, shame, doubt, insecurity that you have picked up along the way, to make a strong stand within yourself as your own unique being.  It could be a prerequisite for you that this work gets done before you are even going to be able to directly address underlying 12th house Pluto issues. 

So if I accept your 11th house choice at face value and give you a reading using an 11th house Pluto chart, although in the big picture it is not the most accurate, it is still going to give you plenty of information you will strongly identify with that will help you move forward.  It validates the process you are in and need to be in. 

It would lead you to your next necessary step.  The logical mind might see this as giving the person incorrect information.  To the intuitive mind, it would just be seen as what's up.  There is a need for the person at this time to receive the information about 11th house, OK.  The person, after receiving the information about their next steps, starts focusing on individuating.  Years of work on that lead them to a whole other inner place.  Then, during a Uranus transit years later, someone appears in their life with information about their ACTUAL birth time.  They go back to that astrologer and now learn they've actually had a 12th house Pluto all along, a whole other bottom line.  Because of the work they've done from years of individuating they are now in a place where they can begin directly dealing with the 12th house Pluto issues they didn't even relate to at the time of the initial reading. (How do we know they didn't even relate to them?  Because they did not pick them as their bottom line, when they are!)

Its not an issue of wrong information that misleads.  Its an issue of going from current truth, to greater truth, to even greater truth, progressively over time.  Thus you are validating their next step.  Remember, I did not tell you that your bottom line was the 11th house - you told me that.  Thus that is your present reality.  If it is not your ultimate reality then as you continue doing real inner work, gradually you will begin to realize there are levels in you even deeper than the ones you had previously discovered. As a direct result of doing the work on the levels you are already aware of.  That work inevitably leads to the next steps.

I am finding that as one does more readings, ones intuition gets sharper and one develops more trust in it.  If your answer didn't feel quite right to me I might start asking Scorpio questions, probing questions, to see if I really felt 11th house is your bottom line. If I suspected 12th house, as 12th house can hide, mask, I might ask questions to see if the person seemed to know more than they were letting me know they did.

It's important to grasp that because of the way the EA system is constructed, and because the person self-selected what they most identify with, you will not be misleading the person and they will receive what you offer as valuable.  In essence, you are doing the best you can possibly do under the circumstances of no birth time. 
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Steve
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« Reply #22 on: Oct 10, 2010, 09:42 AM »

Hi Dhyana

Quote
When I read this description above, I totally resonated with it as well.  Just wondering what other chart signatures may produce this exact same sense you described above other than a 12th House Pluto?

That's going to apply to 12th house, Pisces, Neptune as well as to Pluto in the 12th.  The difference is, with Pluto in the 12th it's the Soul's bottom line.   

You have a Saturn/Chiron conjunction in Pisces, and your south node of Neptune is in your 12th house.  Thus those archetypes are part of your makeup.  But your Pluto location is your bottom line, the root cause of why you have the 12th house/Pisces archetypes in the 1st place.
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Elen
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« Reply #23 on: Oct 10, 2010, 10:13 AM »

Hi Ellen

Using me as an example, if I came in for a reading but didn't know my birth data and you showed me the descriptions of the houses, I would have chosen the 11th, which is not where Pluto is in my chart (but we, of course, wouldn't know that).  So my question is, how do you REALLY figure out which house is truly the bottom line.  Again, in my example, I would have chosen 11, but in fact 12 is my bottom line.  Without birth data, all we have to go on is what I say most resonates.  But that's wrong.  I'm resonating not with the bottom line, but with something that is the result of the bottom line.  Does my question makes sense?  How would you determine that the house that a person chooses is in FACT the bottom line house?

Well, you can't know for certain if the house they choose is the actual bottom line without a chart, and if you had a chart you wouldn't have to go through this process. 

You can't know for certain if the chart is accurate with any rectification process. 

For that matter, you can't know for certain if many birth times you are given are accurate.  I see an out of proportion number of birth times of 7:00 or 3:30 (rounded times).  I've been given birth times that came from the person's mother, and they discover 2 years later that mom had been off by 6 hours and 13 minutes! 

The key with EA work is keeping in mind that what we are really doing is READING THE PERSON'S SOUL, not just the piece of paper that is their birth chart.  And much of that is intuitive, not logical.

Let's use you as an example.  You strongly identified with the 11th house archetypes rather than your actual 12th house Pluto.   This says to me there is a strong need in you to individuate, to throw off past guilt, shame, doubt, insecurity that you have picked up along the way, to make a strong stand within yourself as your own unique being.  It could be a prerequisite for you that this work gets done before you are even going to be able to directly address underlying 12th house Pluto issues. 

So if I accept your 11th house choice at face value and give you a reading using an 11th house Pluto chart, although in the big picture it is not the most accurate, it is still going to give you plenty of information you will strongly identify with that will help you move forward.  It validates the process you are in and need to be in. 

It would lead you to your next necessary step.  The logical mind might see this as giving the person incorrect information.  To the intuitive mind, it would just be seen as what's up.  There is a need for the person at this time to receive the information about 11th house, OK.  The person, after receiving the information about their next steps, starts focusing on individuating.  Years of work on that lead them to a whole other inner place.  Then, during a Uranus transit years later, someone appears in their life with information about their ACTUAL birth time.  They go back to that astrologer and now learn they've actually had a 12th house Pluto all along, a whole other bottom line.  Because of the work they've done from years of individuating they are now in a place where they can begin directly dealing with the 12th house Pluto issues they didn't even relate to at the time of the initial reading. (How do we know they didn't even relate to them?  Because they did not pick them as their bottom line, when they are!)

Its not an issue of wrong information that misleads.  Its an issue of going from current truth, to greater truth, to even greater truth, progressively over time.  Thus you are validating their next step.  Remember, I did not tell you that your bottom line was the 11th house - you told me that.  Thus that is your present reality.  If it is not your ultimate reality then as you continue doing real inner work, gradually you will begin to realize there are levels in you even deeper than the ones you had previously discovered. As a direct result of doing the work on the levels you are already aware of.  That work inevitably leads to the next steps.

I am finding that as one does more readings, ones intuition gets sharper and one develops more trust in it.  If your answer didn't feel quite right to me I might start asking Scorpio questions, probing questions, to see if I really felt 11th house is your bottom line. If I suspected 12th house, as 12th house can hide, mask, I might ask questions to see if the person seemed to know more than they were letting me know they did.

It's important to grasp that because of the way the EA system is constructed, and because the person self-selected what they most identify with, you will not be misleading the person and they will receive what you offer as valuable.  In essence, you are doing the best you can possibly do under the circumstances of no birth time. 

Hi Steve,

THANK YOU.  This makes tremendous sense to me.

Peace,
Ellen
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Elen
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« Reply #24 on: Oct 10, 2010, 01:06 PM »

These are Stacie's words from the "Us and Them" post.  I thought they were a good follow up to Steve's post above.

********************************************************
Re: "Us and Them"
« Reply #18 on: Sep 13, 2010, 03:13 PM » Quote  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i'm reminded that the true power in this work..beacon..is a function of speaking to the soul.  there's a visceral difference in receiving messages directed to one's ego vs. receiving messages directed to one's soul..visceral difference.  The power within this is so simple, yet undeniably potent and healing.  

There is another side of the beacon analogy that is equally perfect..a different kind of beacon..the kind of beacon that transmits signals of distress.  In listening to others SOULS, the precise nature of the signal can be detected and homed in on..allowing the exact words that are needed to be given.

thank you

Stacie
 
 
 

***********************************************************
Any suggestions in how to hone this skill? Just a matter of doing it over and over..?  Perhaps this distinction is something to keep in mind with the archetypes threads...  Which makes me wonder - is part of this skill a matter of really understanding the difference between the distorted vs. natural expressions of the archetypes?

Thanks,
Ellen


I think this post gets too far away from the main topic of this thread, so I'm going to post it as a new topic.
« Last Edit: Oct 11, 2010, 05:06 AM by Ellen » Logged
Dhyana
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 11, 2010, 04:03 AM »

Thanks all for contributing to what you did to my questions in this thread.

Dhyana
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Dhyana
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 11, 2010, 04:04 AM »

Hi Dhyana

Quote
When I read this description above, I totally resonated with it as well.  Just wondering what other chart signatures may produce this exact same sense you described above other than a 12th House Pluto?

That's going to apply to 12th house, Pisces, Neptune as well as to Pluto in the 12th.  The difference is, with Pluto in the 12th it's the Soul's bottom line.  

You have a Saturn/Chiron conjunction in Pisces, and your south node of Neptune is in your 12th house.  Thus those archetypes are part of your makeup.  But your Pluto location is your bottom line, the root cause of why you have the 12th house/Pisces archetypes in the 1st place.


Steve,

That was really important to hear!

It kind of stopped me in my tracks, and signaled me that it is really time to look very very deeply into the most subtle hidden agendas of that H7(Natural Libra house) Pluto in Virgo.
 So important --so key. So TIMELY!

Namaste,
Dhyana
« Last Edit: Oct 11, 2010, 04:09 AM by Dhyana » Logged
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