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Author Topic: Pisces Archetype Discussion  (Read 4359 times)
Katlil
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« Reply #15 on: Mar 04, 2011, 05:36 AM »


Stacie,

How beautifully the part of miracles is conveyed (amongst so much you have put in words)
Thank you 
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JJ
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« Reply #16 on: Mar 04, 2011, 03:19 PM »

Hello all,

Six planets in pisces today...i feel the waters flowing. This isn’t as well written as I would like it to be, but I’m going to post it anyways.

One other aspect of the pisces archetype that hasn’t been discussed is it’s relationship to emotions, feelings and subtle perception. Being the last of the water signs, the feeling function and the potential to interpret feeling is extremely heightened within the archetype. The pisces archetype is the essence of emotion. This can be a cause for confusion, something that Stacie also wrote about, because, for example, in patriarchal societies the feeling function is ignored or is thought of as subversive, malignant or dangerous. The ability to feel and intuit the big picture (pisces used to be co-ruled by Jupiter,) is something that happens instantaneously and is beyond logic. So if there is a piscean individual, say who has mercury in pisces, who has incredible perception but has never been given the language or education about how to develop that perception or communicate that perception, they may experience themselves as crazy/confused because they are in fact perceiving differently than others perceive. The structure of a language itself reflects the beliefs of a culture and Western languages tend not to include ideas that relate to these more subtle ways of perceiving and knowing. Language itself is a boundary of consciousness in that it defines what is possible to think about, and the pisces archetype extends into the realm of the unthinkable. It can only really capture the interrelatedness of reality through metaphor and story. It is, as Stacie mentioned, where we can connect and experience deeper, more fluid states of consciousness.

The connection to the emotional body is also what links pisces to compassion. Everyone has the ability to experience another’s experience - our bodies are actually designed to do so whether we are conscious of it or not. Through mirror neurons simply when we see another person doing, experiencing or feeling our body translates their experience as if it was our own. This is in part how children can learn at such an exponential rate through an osmosis-like effect with those around them. It is this same capacity when developed consciously that becomes compassion - the ability to feel another’s suffering and a desire to alleviate it. Pisces represents the largest aspect of community that includes all and excludes none. It is demonstrated in the golden rule: treat others as you would like to be treated. It is the the consciousness of the bodhisattva or the Christ.

Another piece of this archetype is the culminating aspect of the archetype; it is the last in the entire cycle. So often where we see pisces/12th house planets is also where we can see unfinished business or the business of finishing happening. Whatever was not allowed to be experienced in the other parts of the cycles due to repression etc, needs to be experienced in order for the cycle to close and move into the aries archetype once again. This again connects us back to the emotional body, as within the context of patriarchal societies the emotions are precisely what was not allowed to be experienced and acknowledged. So all of the self-knowledge that arises through the experience of the emotional body needs to be reintegrated into one’s experience. In Vedic/hindu thought the emotion’s are part of the mind and are considered as being the deepest levels of the self, closest to God - the ananda maya or Bliss body. This is yet another explanation for the confusion that is related to the archetype - often I hear clients with 12th house planets talk about their unexplainable emotions arising or emotions that seem disproportionate to the causes. These emotions can be remnants of experience that haven’t been totally digested and arise in order to be integrated back into consciousness.

Lastly, as Ari pointed out, the pisces archetype is tied to the whole, the totality. In as much as the personality does not reflect the totality of self, often the pisces archetype experiences states which lie outside of the boundaries of the personality. At all levels of evolution, the pisces archetype may be crossing boundaries with its permeating, fluid nature to care for others or intervene on behalf of others. As a yin or feminine sign, it is unusual in that it is expansive. It is like the original yin of the body that acts as the source of our sustainment. It calls us to reach deeply inside to merge with that deeper and larger and more inclusive identity that is available to us. Through the emotions of love and bliss we ultimately can realize our connection with all Beings.

Blessings,
JJ
« Last Edit: Mar 08, 2011, 04:57 PM by JJ » Logged
Stacie
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« Reply #17 on: Mar 08, 2011, 01:14 PM »

Hi JJ,

Just want to say it was great reading the thoughts you have added to this discussion.  I particularly enjoyed your insight on mercury in pisces..totally on point.  Merc in pisces could also manifest in a way where the short-term memory seemingly won't hold on to certain ideas or types of information that are gathered or learned.  One will remember the fact of having learned something, but when one tries to recall it it can be so inaccessible that it almost seems like it never existed.  Thus one has to go back and learn it again from a seemingly blank slate.  One can find oneself having to learn and relearn the same thing over and over again, which can lead to the feeling of having an incredibly weak intellect..or at least one the individual has no idea how to control or maintain bcz it just seems to 'have a mind of its own' Wink.   The key is to make the conscious effort to take in and integrate information in a way that can be understood in timeless terms..i.e. applicable to any time, any place, any circumstance, any culture..universal and holistic.

Also, there is one thing I wanted to provide some clarification on with respect to your earlier statement about feeling/emotion/subtle perception, and the ability to interpret that content as naturally heightened in pisces.  The inner experience of the content is indeed heightened in pisces, but the ability to interpret..accurately interpret..what is being experienced at the time it is being experienced, is not something that we typically come into pisces already having in place.  This is something that must be learned as one evolves within the archetype.  I want to go into this more in-depth, but for the moment I have to run.  I'll post additional comments, hopefully tonight.  

Thanks again for contributing your wonderful insights JJ.  Hope we'll be hearing more.

God'dess Bless,
Stacie
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JJ
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« Reply #18 on: Mar 08, 2011, 05:12 PM »

Hi Stacie,

Yes I totally agree with you. The ability to interpret the emotional experiences does need to be developed and the degree to which someone is able to interpret will depend on what has come previously and where they are in their evolution. Of course, we have to look at the whole picture. (I went back and changed my original statement to "potential" for interpretation rather than "ability". Thank you.) I did indicate this through my example, in which I stated, if someone with mercury in pisces has "never been given the language or education about how to develop that perception or communicate that perception, they may experience themselves as crazy/confused because they are in fact perceiving differently than others perceive."

I also agree that having a larger, universal context for information serves an anchor for facts with mercury in pisces. But really my original point was mainly using mercury in pisces to illustrate the big picture connection to emotions within the pisces archetype, rather than exploring all of the variations of mercury in pisces.

Thanks again,
JJ
« Last Edit: Mar 08, 2011, 05:20 PM by JJ » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #19 on: Mar 08, 2011, 07:11 PM »

Hi Stacie and everyone,

All the archetypes can be expressed in a distorted and undistorted way.  I'm hoping we can look at the distortions of the Pisces archetype along these lines:

Together with observation/correlation, can these distortions be easily found in the chart?  

How would Pisces distortions generally manifest within each evolutionary condition?

For example, there are whole groups of people with Chiron in Pisces, so broadly what kinds of distortions and wounds would this correlate to, as well as the type of healing that is born from this aspect?  

Another area could be those with the Planetary South Node of Neptune conjunct personal planets.

I'm thinking could Pisces distortions be associated with turning away from the natural God or nature (Sag square Pisces), similar to what happened during the suppression and distortion of Capricorn energies in the sub-age of Cancer?  

I wonder if the distortions first became apparent in the mind or psyche of humans (Gemini square Pisces).  

Another area of distortion could be the rigid adherence to Saturnian rules and boundaries for security reasons, at the expense of imagination, a free-flow of the mind, a limitation on feeling/emotion, or an arrested development of one's true nature or relationship with the universe.

Then there are aspects such as Neptune opposite or square Pluto.  What do aspects such as these mean from an evolutionary point of view?   Do they basically mean that the individual had a difficult time surrendering to peace in the past, or a difficult time evolving?

Just trying to capture and understand some core meanings of Pisces distortions.

Would love to hear what you and others think.

Thanks so much.
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Upasika
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« Reply #20 on: Mar 09, 2011, 12:12 AM »

Hi Stacie/Linda et al,

Stacie I loved your opening post on Picses, it was just great. And I found your questions re distortions and the suggestions you made Linda very interesting, would like to explore this more.

To me one possible distortion of the Picses archetype involves it's inherent core transendental urge. This urge is in everyone and is the basis of many distortions. This urge engenders discontent in all to a greater or lessor extent and not even the most consensual Saturn orientated person is immune to it.

I'm generalising a bit here, but as a trend ... in the consensus state this urge to escape from the mundaneness of the material world can express through fashion, movies and TV, wild parties, alcohol etc. In the individuated state it can be expressed through taking drugs, parties with alienated others, excessive reading etc, and in the spiritual state through practising rituals etc for the sake of it rather than from a genuine opening to existence via devotion and/or meditation, an innocent wakeful presence.

When escapes from this inherent inner restlessness in the soul and spirit, subtle as they may be, are pursued then distortion of the Picses archetype occurs. When no effort to escape is made, then this discontent becomes the divine discontent many mystics talk of. As Stacie said so well, this eventually leads to disillusionment of various forms as the dissolving effect starts operating on the satisfaction and security all the things in one's life that are external to oneself provide. It is very arduous to not try and escape from this expanding sense of emptiness that naturally grows when there is no escape of any kind from oneself. That is where meditation and various devotional involvements are so helpful.

Also interesting is that as external securities and illusions are allowed to drop away the mind goes through periods where it increasingly goes into overdrive (does for me anyway) !  This can really become a literally crazy space in that regard. And many deep feelings can start surfacing ... feelings that don't seem to be related to anything at all in particular, and often these can be overwhelming and last for days at a time eg loneliness, sadness etc. Sometimes these seem obviously repressed feelings emerging, other times can just seem to be a strange kind of way to connect to life at that time. Allowing the emptiness of life to be real without escape is a huge challenge, but it seems to be the only way to not distort this transcendental urge that is at the core of Picses.

I've noticed that people with hard aspects to Neptune from personal planets have a heightened sense of this transcendental urge, and in a less intense, and sometimes different, way also those with many planets in Picses or the 12th. Those with hard aspects to Neptune often have a hard time handling the urge to escape, especially if in the consensus and 1st and 2nd individuated states. Increasingly from 3rd individuated onwards it seems easier as those souls have usually found a healthy and natural form of devotion or worship to channel the urge into.

It'd be interesting to hear anything others have to say about distortions for this archetype.

blessings Upasika
  
« Last Edit: Mar 09, 2011, 12:21 AM by Upasika » Logged
Deva
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« Reply #21 on: Mar 09, 2011, 09:53 AM »

Hi Stacie eT al, this is a great discussion about the Pisces archetype. I wanted to add a few thoughts about the distortion of the Pisces archetype. Remember that Pisces and its polarity point, Virgo, both correlate with the potential for sadomasochistic behavior. Pisces correlates to idealism, and as as already been discussed, the nature of personal illusions/delusions, and the need to escape from reality in general. Pisces also correlates with ultimate reality, or meaning, and the need to align with something that provides this ultimate meaning or reality. Of course, when we link this need with anything other than developing a relationship with the Divine we set ourselves to experience one disillusionment after the next because the ultimate meaning we are seeking is never truly found. This dynamic can lead to a constant "chasing or dreams." Also, the need to surrender can become distorted relative to the correlation to sadomasochism. It can lead to the need to be totally consumed by another person, or to to totally surrender oneself to another in a negative way. In other words, in certain cases, the feelings of imperfection, lack, and guilt (Virgo polarity) are linked with lead to a need to atone in some way. This guilt can be linked with feeling that we do not measure up to an ideal (Pisces). The guilt and feelings of imperfection can lead to a distorted need to self sacrifice oneselves or for self punishment in some way. The need to escape or deny the reality that these dynamics create by creating fantasies or illusions would then manifest through the Pisces archetype. Some people can create a very active fantasy life as a way of escaping their actual reality. In some cases, when a person does not have a clear sense of self, or their identity, they can unconsciously "play out" the projected images, or fantasies, of another person. This, of course, can lead to a great deal of inner confusion for the person playing this type of role. (I am touching on the masochistic psychology in these examples). The point within this is that the need for ultimate meaning can become distorted in the ways described above, and also the dynamic of sadomasochism and the need to escape from the reality that these dynamics create are linked with the Pisces archetype. The Pisces archetype correlates with the need to culminate, or bring to closer, an entire evolutionary cycle which are linked with the dynamics discussed in the thread.   
God Bless
Deva
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Wendy
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« Reply #22 on: Mar 14, 2011, 08:31 PM »

After reading the most recent posts on distortions of Pisces, here are a few thoughts:

Being part of Pluto in Virgo generation I have often wondered how long it would take me to grasp the elusiveness of PPP in Pisces? as well as Saturn in Pisces.  Now reading about distortions and fantasy, its no wonder our generation has had such a difficult time harnessing Pisces.  It's elusive, intangible.  especially for consensus and individuated as you mentioned Upasika.  Even for 1st stage spiritual, the tendency to fantasize as a way of life is quite tempting, and my guess quite normal.  If I wasn't able to live in the flow of dreaming quite realms, I feel I would go insane.  On the other hand, harnessing that bubble of consciousness to direct it into something real can be a true task.  The discernment of Virgo helps immensely, as well as the other mutable signs, to help break down the understanding and logos of the totality of the universal language of Pisces.

For me once I enter into the energy of Pisces, I can get lost in the bliss of it all.  I have a sense/feeling/knowing of 'why bother', everything is already here, there is nothing to prove, no ego to stroke, only to be and be love.  What else is there anyway.

That's my Pisces speaking.  I guess when Neptune calls on the soul, it really requires a great deal of devotion to meditation and the like, otherwise dreamy illusions get whipped around like fast (or slow) moving clouds in the sky, never actualizing the potential of those dreams.  but isn't that the point of Pisces?  A culmination of all the previous signs.  

I have a friend, an old boyfriend with NN Sun Mercury in Pisces.  He totally lives in total overwhelm, confusion and fantasy, protecting himself from the outer world as much as possible.  I know another Pisces, same thing, just expresses it differently.

Quote from: Stacie
The transcendental impulse can of course play a role in some very problematic conditions.  For example, if one’s consciousness is experiencing a sensitized state over time, and there is no spiritual technique, discipline, or focus through which to integrate spiritual/timeless perceptions, there can be a very real danger of overwhelming consciousness into psychotic break because the rate at which these perceptions are occurring are not being properly regulated, and the interpretation of what is being perceived and why will tend to be referenced through the individual’s existing emotional and psychological reality..their own inner stuff..versus through an archetypal, focused, accurate blueprint of natural spiritual law.  This can lead to conditions of delusions and illusions, paranoia, schizophrenic conditions, hysteria, catatonia, confusion, utter loss of emotional/psychological grounding in time/space/sociological reality, among many other possible things.  

I can attest to this experience.  The Pluto in Virgo generation with Chiron in Pisces/Saturn in Pisces have this challenge to come into their bodies, their souls and balance the Chirotic opening they possess. 

Regarding personal planets square Neptune.  I know of me, having Sun square Neptune, it surely challenges me in many ways, but one thing is for sure, it always leads me to choose compassion versus inflation; transcendance versus the mundane.  But so much of my chart suggests this, I'm not sure about it generally speaking.  My sister has Venus Neptune conjunction and she surely believes in soul, though her resistance is immense. 

Thanks Linda for creating this entire zodiac thread.

Blessings,
Wendy


 

« Last Edit: Mar 14, 2011, 08:49 PM by Wendy » Logged
Wendy
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« Reply #23 on: Mar 14, 2011, 08:34 PM »

Another thought:

Miracles are born out of dreams, I believe.  At least the ones in my life have been.  I'm a big dreamer and miracle manifestor (Jupiter in the 12th biquinitle with Neptune).
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Upasika
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« Reply #24 on: Mar 15, 2011, 04:06 AM »

Hi Wendy,

Very interesting ... a few thoughts re this. As you say the tendency for Pisces to fantasize and dream is quite natural, unless in an advanced evolutionary condition. And being "natural" it would be dangerous to suppress it, it is the energy of imagination and whenever energy is supressed it becomes distorted, so it would itself become distorted - then the layers of distortion are increasing.  

There are different ways to bring oneself out of it such as strong exercise, focussing on one thing at a time (totality in one's actions), bhakti, watching one's breathing, meditation etc. But another key to this is to remember the "dreamer". In other words to be present to the dreaming. Letting the fantasizing, day dreaming etc, continue without censorship but just at the back of it, behind it, silently watching it unfold. When an undercurrent in the mind is moving into fantasyland just to notice it, notice that you want to, and just let it happen, but staying in touch by also watching it.

When ongoing fantasies all share a particular theme it can indicate that the unconscious is releasing something, just as happens at night when we're dreaming. "Listening" to the essence of these fantasies can sometimes clue us into an aspect of ourselves that we are not giving enough attention to in our life, some desire or deeper need that we we aren't actioning, showing us a direction. After a period of allowing fantasies to run unchecked but watched, the energy changes, becomes less intense and eventually dissolves once we've intuited the "message". The result at this point can actually be more clarity manifesting about something in one's life.

The imagination is a powerful thing, something hypnotists have known and demonstrated from long ago. It will always be imagination and never reality, but when it is used consciously and constructively it can be healthy and very effective.

On another note re compassion (your's and JJ's post) - Pisces can also be very sensitive. But this often comes at a price, that of being trampled upon. The inherent vulnerability of Pisces is not catered to or valued in many parts of the world. I feel that often the Pisces compassion is actually a sense of obligation or reaction to guilt (as Deva talked about) - a false sense of surrender rather than true compassion. One needs a clear and strong sense of identity to act with compassion.

I've noticed that Pisces people often struggle with anger, not being able to express their needs in a simple way for long periods of time (go with the flow) until one day they erupt in a massively angry outburst completely surprising everyone involved, including themselves! As they grow in self acceptance it is this anger, progressively brought into consciousness, that evolves naturally into compassion with deep clarity - arising from their innate sense or knowing that we are essentially all the same. I'm not sure if this is a generic Picses phenomema, but a parallel to this that comes to mind is Jesus with the money changers in the temple.

blessings Upasika
« Last Edit: Mar 15, 2011, 04:24 AM by Upasika » Logged
Wendy
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« Reply #25 on: Mar 15, 2011, 07:25 AM »

There are different ways to bring oneself out of it such as strong exercise, focussing on one thing at a time (totality in one's actions), bhakti, watching one's breathing, meditation etc. But another key to this is to remember the "dreamer". In other words to be present to the dreaming. Letting the fantasizing, day dreaming etc, continue without censorship but just at the back of it, behind it, silently watching it unfold. When an undercurrent in the mind is moving into fantasyland just to notice it, notice that you want to, and just let it happen, but staying in touch by also watching it.

Witnessing is a excellent discerning tool, which we can use to see

Quote from: Upasika
On another note re compassion (your's and JJ's post) - Pisces can also be very sensitive. But this often comes at a price, that of being trampled upon. The inherent vulnerability of Pisces is not catered to or valued in many parts of the world. I feel that often the Pisces compassion is actually a sense of obligation or reaction to guilt (as Deva talked about) - a false sense of surrender rather than true compassion. One needs a clear and strong sense of identity to act with compassion.

I've noticed that Pisces people often struggle with anger, not being able to express their needs in a simple way for long periods of time (go with the flow) until one day they erupt in a massively angry outburst completely surprising everyone involved, including themselves! As they grow in self acceptance it is this anger, progressively brought into consciousness, that evolves naturally into compassion with deep clarity - arising from their innate sense or knowing that we are essentially all the same. I'm not sure if this is a generic Picses phenomema, but a parallel to this that comes to mind is Jesus with the money changers in the temple.

This is an interesting topic Upasika and I agree about Jesus.  Several months ago, my Piscean friend and I were interacting regularly due to a project we were both working on.  A pattern to sensitivity and being compassionate towards each other  continually came up within our daily relating, but it was being taken out of context in my opinion.  I brought thus up to him because I didn't want to encourage it.  When we talked he tried to tell me I wasn't being compassionate.  From my perspective he was using the term compassion to justify his 'sensitivity' rather than be embodied and clearly see with compassion.  The conversation went well, and was clearly guided because he actually felt the energy shift when I spoke of the Course in Miracles and how Jesus was able to be so compassionate--since he was embodied and fully present to all levels of reality, including the non-linear realms that Pisces is akin to.

I'm not sure compassion is anything more than truth in wholeness.  Not Sag truth, but truth filled with wisdom, energy channeled with conscious love (heaven to earth vice versa--Pisces-Virgo).
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Upasika
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« Reply #26 on: Mar 15, 2011, 04:06 PM »

Quote
I'm not sure compassion is anything more than truth in wholeness.  Not Sag truth, but truth filled with wisdom, energy channeled with conscious love (heaven to earth vice versa--Pisces-Virgo).

... I like the way you put that Wendy, esp the last bit.
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Linda
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« Reply #27 on: Mar 19, 2011, 02:30 PM »

Pisces    -    12th house    -    Neptune


Disillusionment    
Victim
Persecuted
Martyr
Savior
Illusions
Priest
Alcoholism
Mystic
Medium
Psychic
Astral glamour
Addiction
Drugs
Escape
Hopeless
Helpless
Weak boundaries    
Surrender
Subconscious
Transcendence      
Wounded
Suffering
Innocence
The Fool
Suicide
Lost Identity
Guilt (Individual /
Collective)
Disbelief
Masochist
Fantasy
Naive
Poet
Musician
Loss / erosion
Isolation
Confusion
Dreamer
Dissociation


[P. Walsh, EA Archetypes]


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Linda
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« Reply #28 on: Mar 19, 2011, 09:16 PM »

T h a n k   y o u

to Stacie and everyone who participated in this thread.





Feel free to continue the discussion.

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Wendy
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« Reply #29 on: Mar 20, 2011, 08:34 AM »

Hi Linda,

I don't know how I missed your post here:

Hi Stacie and everyone,

All the archetypes can be expressed in a distorted and undistorted way.  I'm hoping we can look at the distortions of the Pisces archetype along these lines:

Together with observation/correlation, can these distortions be easily found in the chart?  

How would Pisces distortions generally manifest within each evolutionary condition?

For example, there are whole groups of people with Chiron in Pisces, so broadly what kinds of distortions and wounds would this correlate to, as well as the type of healing that is born from this aspect?  

Another area could be those with the Planetary South Node of Neptune conjunct personal planets.

I'm thinking could Pisces distortions be associated with turning away from the natural God or nature (Sag square Pisces), similar to what happened during the suppression and distortion of Capricorn energies in the sub-age of Cancer?  

I wonder if the distortions first became apparent in the mind or psyche of humans (Gemini square Pisces).  

Another area of distortion could be the rigid adherence to Saturnian rules and boundaries for security reasons, at the expense of imagination, a free-flow of the mind, a limitation on feeling/emotion, or an arrested development of one's true nature or relationship with the universe.

Then there are aspects such as Neptune opposite or square Pluto.  What do aspects such as these mean from an evolutionary point of view?   Do they basically mean that the individual had a difficult time surrendering to peace in the past, or a difficult time evolving?

Just trying to capture and understand some core meanings of Pisces distortions.

Would love to hear what you and others think.

Thanks so much.

Chiron in Pisces generation has similar patterns; original wound-disillusionment with Godhead/Goddess, stemming most likely from patriarchal socieities.  They also have prior knowledge, direct experience of total union with universal knowing.  Their medicine comes in the form of total trust in the totality of the universe, healing, love as the answer, multi-dimensional awareness, ability to channel this.  Most of this generation has Chiron opposing Pluto in Virgo as well (and Uranus, as well as some with conjunction to Saturn in Pisces), so the essence of Chiron in Pisces relates directly to their souls desire, souls past, and nodal direction. 

I feel/believe the distortions began with the distortion of relationship to nature/natural law, i.e., patriarchal culture.  The mutable signs progress from one to the other Gemini, logos-the mind-ethers, Virgo, the embodied mind-devotion-earth, Sag, natural law, truth-manifestation/fire, Pisces, encompassing connection, complete awareness, love.  Each mutable sign sets the stage for the next mutable integration of the one before, leading to the totality of oneness.  Because of the distortions, they are viewed separately rather than completely. 

Another area of distortion could be the rigid adherence to Saturnian rules and boundaries for security reasons, at the expense of imagination, a free-flow of the mind, a limitation on feeling/emotion, or an arrested development of one's true nature or relationship with the universe.  I love this description-very accurate in describing collective unconscious modus operandi. 

I believe the generations alive today all have Neptune in sextile relationship to Pluto.  Now with Pluto in Cap, and Neptune moving into Pisces, I'm not sure if they will come into sqaure?  Pluto 7 Cap, Neptune 0 Pisces (soon)?  Rad could probably answer this.


Blessings,
Wendy

 

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