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Author Topic: Chart Practice with Client Feedback: Adina  (Read 6096 times)
adina
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« on: May 08, 2009, 11:18 AM »

Hi everyone,

Rad has asked me to post my chart for practice, this being for several different reasons.

1. It gives students the chance to follow a chart from beginning to end – thru an entire life – with feedback from the “client,” i.e., me. This is something that we rarely get to see, even as professional astrologers.

2. The chart is full of all kinds of “exceptions” we find in EA, including, but not limited to: skipped steps that include Pluto square the nodes; a planet conjunct the south node, a past life suicide; active masochist; and compensatory behavior that gave the appearance of being in a much earlier evolutionary stage than is actually the case.

3. Last but not least, I have begun, in earnest, the last leg of my current incarnation and am moving toward my transition. The resolution of chart/life dynamics looks very different from this viewpoint, and I’d be happy to share that in the spirit of learning as well. You’ll also be able to follow along with that journey in relation to the chart thru my blog: www.bluelotusletters.com

Birth and biographical information: Adina: Dec. 3, 1947; 4:10 pm; Alliance, OH; white, raised in solid middle to upper middle class socio-economic conditions; Methodist religious conditioning; First stage spiritual. Father was a CPA; Mother a homemaker. Raised with 2 brothers, one 4 ½ years older, and one 6 ½ years younger. Rest of family in 3rd stage consensus.

Severe emotional, psychological, and sexual abuse as a child. Parents were always “right,” and kids were always “wrong.” Older brother obvious favorite of Mother. Father had narcissistic personality disorder but was well respected businessman. We looked like the perfect, happy little 1950s family, but behind closed doors…….  Married at 19 (1967) and had two children: a boy in 1969 and a girl in 1971. Divorced in 1991.

So, let’s start with that Fourth House Pluto and have some evolutionary detective fun!




« Last Edit: Jun 24, 2009, 08:39 AM by adina » Logged
Lia
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2009, 05:56 PM »

Hi Adina,

What a generous offer to be the "genie pig" for EA Grin

Well, let me begin with a few thoughts for starters:

4th Pluto: a soul who has worked on its emotional body for a long time now. There is a need to embrace all emotions as emanating from the self (versus others being responsible for it) and to learn to fulfil the emotional needs from within - versus being dependent on and expecting others to meet those emotional needs. 
The 4th pluto lesson includes the need to mature emotionally and based on that maturation create/reformulate the self image.

With Pluto in 4th the issue usually starts at childhood; the emotional needs of the child is neither understood nor met by the parents. This can happen simply because the parents are unable to perceive the child's specific needs, or can happen for many other reasons, including abuse, emotional harm etc.

In the same time pluto is in leo: along the above the soul had a deep desire to actualise itself from its own merit, also had some form of narcistic nature. Within this placement in the 4th, there has been an expectation that those very deep, intense emotional needs should be met by the parents. There is also a feeling to be special and unique which generally adds to the emotional expectations as a child and causes great despair when these needs are not met. Emotional insecurity is the result and the soul is repeatedly thrown back to itself - with an intention to learn to meet its own emotional needs. Obviously as a child no awareness of such is present in any of us....the wounding in childhood clearly stated in this placement.

These kinds of emotionally unfulfilled life experiences have been repeated in several life times. The stellium next to pluto in the 4th with saturn moon and mars symbolises the multiply effort via many life times in this very area and an intensity of tension within the emotional body.

South node is in the 6th in scorpio: the way how this was implemented has been very very intense to begin with (scorpio s.node) and there has been some form of inferiority superiority beliefs attached to it. As the ruler points back to pluto itself, the intensity is emotional above all. There has been some form of merging, uniting with others via very deep emotional dynamics, which were also based on some kind of superiority/inferiority issues. .

With 4th Pluto (as ruler) this points back to familial relations, including the birth family members as well as intimate others in the past.  These people also had in one way or another extremely intense emotional needs. With scorpio s.node it is certain that the soul has experienced power and powerlessness emotionally and that the famous "rug" has been pulled under its feet many times... Roll Eyes

The 6th house is also the house of discrimination: so one of the lessons has been to apply discrimination in intimate relationship as whom merge with and whom not to. This is related to what kind of power symbols (re. emotional security needs in this case) the soul identified with...

Bottomline however in this symbolism is the issue of consciously or unconsciously waiting for others (scorpio) in the past to supply the security the soul was searching for (4th house pluto AND scorpio s.node together.) The 6th s.node also suggests that the soul has felt some sort of guilt and wanted to atone for that guilt. This guilt is related in one way or another to others the soul felt one with; scorpio. Something happened possibly secretly (scorpio) in relation to the soul itself and to others that caused this guilt at the first place.
With scorpio ruled by the leo 4th pluto it is likely that these others were either family members or from the same background of origin as the soul was in that life time. What had happened affected the self image of the soul. When pluto is also the s.node ruler: the connection within the symbolism will be multiplied and ever more intense. Eventually the soul with this particular configuration feels ashamed for who it essentially is. (back to 4th house pluto as ruler of the 6th scorpio s.node) That's what caused the problem...

South node conj. mercury and chiron in scorpio: something has been said, communicated in some ways that is directly related to this inner feeling of shame and guilt. Further more what has been said wounded itself and others (chiron) and possibly it is related to death (scorpio)

With another aspect of the 4th pluto as ruler: it is also possible that the connection was gender related, i.e. what has been commincated affected other women as well....if we take this a step further we can see from this symbolism a horrible picture how women has been persecuted for being a woman during the patriarchy ..the reason amongst other things can be "forbidden" sexual activity (6th house, something that is judged sinful; scorpio amongst other things; sexuality, one's sexual nature.)

Imagining the possible event(s) behind the archetypal correlations probably will give the feel as where the guilt may originate from and how it then brought along in time sinking deep down into the unconscious realms of the soul (pluto) ...yet from there affecting deeply the emotional body and the self image....and why the multiplied skipped steps developed by 4 planets are all connected to this s.node issue.....

Ok I guess it is enough for starters...I let others to continue from here... Smiley

Let me know Adina your feedback sofar...
And thanks again for your courage to offer your chart for EA purposes!

Blessings,

Lia
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 06:30 PM by Lia » Logged
Lia
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2009, 06:09 PM »

oops...I didn't put this right sorry Grin
What I meant being persecuted and eventually killed as a woman for being a sexual being...and within those circumstances, being judged this way, saying or being forced to say (scorpio=force) things about others; others whom the soul loved and felt very close to (scorpio)...they came from the same origin or even the same family..(4th pluto ruler).

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Lia
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2009, 11:20 AM »

Hi everyone again,

Just one more important thing about the 6th scorpio s.node relative to the original traumas in this chart: the 6th is also the house of "service" so the kind of service that the soul fulfilled ORIGINALLY, along with other women, were of course rituals,(scorpio) and amongst those, sexual rituals including the sexual initiation of male children. Which is within natural society, of paramount importance. It teaches the male how to use sexual energy in the right way.

(As for history: in general, this was one of the key factors why human violence as such belongs ONLY to patriarchal times. The prior matriarchal period was far longer though, yet there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that human communities were violent either to each other or within one community. Reason being: it is the suppression and/or wrong use of the sexual energy which leads to distortion of the natural human psyche, which leads to rage, which then leads to violent behaviour against each other. The distortion of the phychology of the masses which is all based on sexual suppression and distorted behaviour is what directly responsible for the mass violence we experience within the patriarchal period of our histroy.)

So in regards to this chart, at that time (matriarchal times) the soul had a highly respected (satrun conj. pluto!) societal role that only women could fulfill...(4th house)
So the original trauma here is directly linked on a personal level to the upside/down switch of reality: something that the soul felt proud of (leo pluto, leo saturn and moon) and was personally and socially acknowledged for, at one point became the source of shame and social persecution....the original service became a sin....so everything the soul based its special identity upon and what ORIGINALLY provided it's inner AND outer security, became the source of feeling utterly guilty for....

I hope this more detailed historical background will make it easier for others to jump in??  Grin



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Deva
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2009, 12:00 PM »

I wanted to add the potential and special capacities I saw in this chart. With Sun/Jupiter Sag/7th house you could definately impart wisdom of natural law to others that are based on your own expereince of aligning and living that truth (undoing the compensation you talked about). With Mercury in Scorpio in the 6th house conjunct the SN there is aslo the ability to communicate these principles very clearly and with an unsual depth (Venus in cap/8th house also symbolizes purging conditioning patterns that has been inhibiting growth in the past). The underminding messages that have prevented the full actulization of this teaching/healing capacity must be released/purged as well (South Node in Scorpio in the 6th conjunct Mercury in the context of PLuto in Leo in the 4th house conjunct saturn and the Moon). The 4th house emphasis reflects that internal security must be established at a very deep level in  order for the full teaching capacities to shine. The South Node in 6th house, and sag in the 7th reflects a naturally humble and compassionate person who desires to live their truth, and help others do the same.
Deva
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ari moshe
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2009, 04:53 PM »

Adina, you are so beautitul! thank you. i hope you will continue blogging.

COPD/emphysema- what is that associated with astrologically, mercury+pluto/scorpio? in your case, do you know what the cause was?

Quote
So in regards to this chart, at that time (matriarchal times) the soul had a highly respected (satrun conj. pluto!) societal role that only women could fulfill...(4th house)
So the original trauma here is directly linked on a personal level to the upside/down switch of reality: something that the soul felt proud of (leo pluto, leo saturn and moon) and was personally and socially acknowledged for, at one point became the source of shame and social persecution....the original service became a sin....so everything the soul based its special identity upon and what ORIGINALLY provided it's inner AND outer security, became the source of feeling utterly guilty for....

i think that is brilliant. i beleive the neptune in the 5th in libra squaring that venus adds to that as well.

i want to share a thought on pluto squaring nn: the soul has developed strong sensitivity and fear of the patriarchal culture due to being persecuted, (burned at stake?) (venus cap Cool. and as a result has learned to suppress it's own inner feminine wisdom, feeling far from fully inhabiting it's deep feminine interior, creative potential, sexual expression (nn taurus 12th, venus square neptune libra 5th) and maintaining natural and healthy boundaries. beyond what lia wrote, im sure we have lifetimes in which this soul was a male, a patriarch in fact who was probably famous and was highly identified with social opinion and acceptance. in these lifetimes/lifetime the soul didn't know how to completely own to it's own feminine consciousness, it's deepest needs bc they weren't accepted or appropriate in that culture. so possibly male lifetimes with non hetero sexual desires? also attempting to liberate from ideas about what sexuality, the body is (uranus in gemini in the second) quincunx and ruled by mercury on the sn.

the focus has been on the sn. a fear of loosing control, and difficulty forgiving herself for her spiritual imperfections, and other people as well- the past, family, the acceptance of past trauma. it's about coming to terms with where she is out of power (scorpio) to maintain control over life (6th house). in the past there has been a strong emphasis on trying to maintain safety as a protection mechanism. as an evolutioanry catalyst, she chose to experience great abandonment and neglect and abuse of all kinds that she would inwardly experience as a punishment for her lack of sexual perfection, the feeling of having done something wrong. this lead to self neglect and masochistic tendencies/attracting abuse to atone for her imperfect desires. i can totally see how living itself was a burden.

i also want to add that with mercury on the sn squaring pluto saturn moon in leo= the power and influence of her mind to serve others. and possible lifetimes long ago of doing so. like what deva said-  all that becomes activated as a deep level of internal security is established. and FOR SURE with sun in sag cj juptier in 7th this soul has chosen a mission to share it's gifts and awareness as an insightful teacher that appreciates and can relate to many different kind of people. and thank you again for doing so adina!

btw, just noticing the aquarian trio squaring your nodes, this clearly is a powerful time for you.
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Lia
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2009, 04:59 AM »

Hi guys,

This is so exciting Grin Really this is an opportunity of a life time as being able to look at EA in this way with a "client" looking kind of backward so to speak...again, Adina it is such a gift to enable us to do so in the name of the evolutionary paradigm as a natural law and testing our ability to grasp it via a chart!

Thanks Deva and Ari to jump in and make such valuable inputs!

You are SOO right Ari, these transits in the 10th in aq. (pluto's and all other 4th planets polarity house!) signifies such a powerful time! Isn't that  amazing...thanks for pointing that out!

I am blown away, just HOW graphic is that: aq. objectivity, 10th house social context and here we are trying to give some objective, group effort feedback (aq.) in a way that in the same time is an implementation of what the soul can give back to the community (10th house) and all that in square with the nodes activating the whole complicated skipped steps dynamics.....
Also tr. pluto is right on venus the ruler of the n.node!WOW!

It is indeed such a gift from you Adina, such a special opportunity at such a special time...because of that, I'd like to suggest to go step by step planet by planet, dynamics to dynamics, trying to uncover the many-layered soul structure - as each soul has multiplied layers within themselves and all of them add to the phenomena of what we call life; the experiences and lessons - past and present - via which our souls attempt to learn and grow....in this case having a scorpio s.node in the 6th it is clear that the soul programmed many powerful metamorphosing experiences in order to grow beyond it's prior limitations of all kinds...

Adina I'd like to ask if you would be okay with that approach?? Shocked If we try to dig in step by step and attempt to uncover the "secrets" of your soul  Shocked on our way of trying to apply the method of synthetising the EA symbols?  Grin
In the hope that all this may positively adds to the soul-programmed metamorphosing experience symbolised by that tr. pluto ...isn't that amazing how it all connects? I.e. that pluto being the s.node's ruler and transiting OVER the n.node ruler.... in a chart when the heart is the skipped steps notion -i.e. going back and forth bewtween those two symbols for life times?

It is indeed a privilidge to be a part of this process...as Wolf used to say "astrology in our face!" Grin

Much love and blessings,
Lia

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adina
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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2009, 10:10 PM »

Thanks very much Lia, Deva and Ari! I really appreciate this excellent analysis and thank you for your very kind words. I apologize for the delay in feedback and a brief response now; this past weekend was an especially busy one for me, and much of today was taken up with medical issues, but I wanted to post a few things yet this evening - things that especially stood out or had special meaninfgfor me - as well as to encourage you and others to keep going.

I also agree with Lia's last post about regrouping, so to speak, and employing the basic evolutionary axis for the analysis; i.e., we start with Pluto/PP, S node and it's ruler, then N node and its ruler, etc.

First, Lia (and then Ari), you are spot on with the prior life role of sacred prostitute, and we can further back that up with the Vesta in Cancer in the 3rd TRINE the S Node/Mercury in Scorp in the sixth. Also, we can note that at 27 Scorp, the S Node of Mars (remember how important the planetary nodes are)  is conjunct the S Node and also trine the Vesta. Ari, you brought in the Venus, too, in aspect to Neptune, and we can again add the S Node of Vesta conjunct the Venus, so you can see how each aspect and layer adds more and more  information and confirmation. Then add Pallas in Pisces in 10 (inconjunct the Vesta and square the nodes and Mercury) and you can see again the persecution for speaking at a different level than accepted by society in general and patriarchal leaders in particular. The next thing to figure in relation to this past life info is how it affects the current life.

In relation to the following in Lia's first post: "The 6th s. node also suggests that  the soul has felt some sort of guilt and wanted to atone for that guilt....... Something happened possibly secretly (Scorpio) in relation to the soul itself and to others that caused this guilt at the first place." ....  Yes, and let's look at the possibilities of what that might have been and include the Merc in Scorp conj the S node.

Deva, in relation to the following that you pointed out quite accurately, "The undermining messages that have prevented the full actualization of this teaching/healing capacity must be released /purged as well (you included all the astro backup above)."  I feel this is an especially deep lesson/need for this soul this life, the purging of the messages that originated from others as well as the self, and continued thru the inner dialogue. Right on! And still working on a few remaining threads of it!

Ari, like I mentioned above, yes, indeed, to adding the Neptune in 5 squaring the Venus!  As far as fear of patriarchal culture due to persecution... it  was in particular... torture..that led to some of that suppression that you mentioned, so we can explore that more. Very good.  As far as the reference to "lifetimes in which this soul was a male, a patriarch in fact who was probably famous and was highly indentified with social opinion and acceptance,"... we need to keep in mind the evolutionary stage of the soul. First stage spiritual would not identify or seek "social opinion and acceptance, in and of itself, and would not be in the kind of position AS you've described it. If sought out as a means of compensation, it still wouldn't hold any meaning for that soul itself.

Next, where do you feel you see the "possible male lifetimes with non heterosexual desires?"  In relation to the "..... sn, a fear of loosing control," and following that, "..... coming to terms with where she si out of power (scorpio) to maintain control over life (6th house).....  is there something more specific you're referring to in relation to loosing and wanting to maintain control?

As far as the Astro markers for COPD/emphysema, the basis would be the Uranus in Gemini in 2 inconjunct the Merc in Scorp in the 6th. I do know the cause, but let's play astrological detective to determine what that is first, because we sure do create everything for or out of a reason.  Wink

This is great work, everyone! I hope you continue and that others join in. We have SO much we can cover, especially as it relates to the state of the consciousness when it began this incarnation and where it is now and will be when it leaves this incarnation behind.  It's quite graphic, and I think a great tool for astrologers to be able to actually SEE the possibilities.   Smiley  Again, this is great, and I deeply appreciate your time and efforts in doing this!

God bless,

Adina
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 08:51 AM by adina » Logged
ari moshe
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2009, 10:28 PM »

alright, so b4 i give a go at it- when i start with pluto south node and its ruler, pp, nn and its ruler- is it recommended that i incorporate any of the other themes- such as the role the moon and sun play within all of that? or do you recommend i do that afterwards? in this approach, where does all the other stuff flow in? are we recommended i follow the process given in the "planetary method of chart analysis" in the measuring the night?

basically, how would you suggest i go about interpreting this?

Thank you!

btw, those emoticons are rather mischevious! via some punctuation and parenthesis, i accidently posted a  Cool when talking about venus in capricorn and persecution  Shocked
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adina
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2009, 07:06 AM »

You have a great sense of humor, Ari!  You have asked a very important and pertinent question. Since this MB is open to the public, not everyone may be familiar with the basic evolutionary axis that Wolf taught. So, yes, the method/process in Measuring the Night II would be the way to go. Pluto, PP, South node and ruler, n node and ruler, then Sun, Merc, etc. And in this particular case/chart, Pluto squares the nodal axis, so BOTH nodes have been worked on before without either one being FULLY developed, resulting in the skipped steps. Just as a reminder, the node that last conjuncted pluto is the resolution node for skipped steps, meaning the one that MUST be worked on to recover the skipped steps. In this case, that is the N Node. Let me know if you have any other questions about how to proceed, Ari. I look forward to your analysis!  Smiley

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ari moshe
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2009, 05:43 PM »

Alright! so i've been palying with this for a bit now. Finally realized that the best thing to do is to keep it simple and just take a first step in this process. I still think I may be going too far too soon. I look forward and am grateful ahead of time for your feedback, adina and anyone else.

For those who aren't familiar- this is a general method (partially) explained in Measuring the Night Vol II- "planetary method for chart analysis" with JWG. After pluto/pp/nodes and rulers, you start with the sun and move out from there. It's considered a Virgoian step by step type of analysis which can naturally flip into unified Piscean perception. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to include aspects to the nodes in the beginning.

The underlying reason for past incarnations has been for the soul to experience itself as the creator of it's own security (pluto). The lesson is about learning detachment and not personalizing everything as the determinant of self identity (pp). This allows for an essential security that truly comes from within. security coming from within is a powerful concept when we're looking at pluto in leo in the 4th. this is the creative force of compassion- a bon fire that radiates love and nurturance.

In past lives we see a strong pattern of experiencing emotional manipulation, abandonment, and abuse of all kinds. This is indicated with all that 4th house squaring the nodes. Developing the emotional body/emotional maturity and responsibility for taking care of others, managing her own family/ taking care of her deepest needs (saturn moon 4th), learning how to be discerning and make decisions that support her deepest emotional needs (mars virgo 4th). squaring the nodes- the first thing that tells me is all those issues have been the crux for her soul's evolutionary journey.

6th house scorpio, /12th house taurus. sn reflects in the soul seeking to cultivate an essential humility and an intense awareness of ALL imperfections. the taurus 12th nn reflects letting go and finding perfection in just what is. and in that perfection feeling completely fulfilled and content in her own being.

put ruler of sn in 4th house and get the square going= the evolutionary intent has been experienced primarily through the loss of control in her life. This speaks strongly to being a victim of forces of deep oppression that push her into the chaos of having no control. her pattern has been to attract punishment to herself in the form of all kinds of emotional sexual and verbal abuse and intense abandonment at a core level (sn scorpio 6th relative to pluto). This is bc she has naturally been very controlling and obsessive about perfection- to the extent that she has cyclicly created experiences of complete chaos and disorder in her life, in her health, in her enviroment. her obsession for control has been linked to maintaining the status quo of security in her life. In her past, she has been very dependent on the energy and love she gets from other people. This dependence on outside energy has been an evolutionary catalyst for these experiences in order to learn the pluto lesson of emotional self reliance.

QUESTION: i dont feel I entirely GET the essence of scorpio in the 6th in relationship to Pluto in the 4th. Can you help me with that?

As I wrote earlier, she learned to suppress her own inner feminine wisdom, feeling far from fully inhabiting it's deep feminine interior, creative potential, sexual expression (nn taurus 12th, venus in cap 8th square neptune libra 5th) and maintaining natural and healthy boundaries. She's flip flopped between LETTING GO (living in full alignment with her divine beauty queen, but also being overly naive and trusting of ANYONE) and HOLDING ON (trying to fix herself- maybe sex changes, killing herself bc of the immense difficulties in living, TAKING VENGENCE on others or symbols of others who have persecuted her (also reflected in the nature of venus), sado-masochistic relationships in which she can play out her story of being a victim and also find empowerment- all scorpio 6th linked to the vulnerability of pluto in the 4th).

The general tendency has been to be very cautious of victimization, of the possibilty of abaondonment. In fact, she has learned to expect it. She has developed an acute sense of perception, discrimination and judgement as a protection mechanism (sn).

We can understand past lives in which she was hung, tried, burned etc. the scorpio in the 6th as well as venus in cap in the 8th feels stongly connected to past lives as a witch/healer/herbalist that was persecuted by the patriarchal powers that be.

ok- so that's just based on the nodes, rulers, pluto and pp. I'm trying my best to keep this grounded!

Lets just remember that the overall nodes pluto story imply the lesson of self reliance and becoming empowered by her deepest values as a spiritual being here with a purpose. This naturally involves owning her power and sexuality and helping others do the same.

Now I'm just going to generalize each planet.
The sun in Sag in the 7th= spiritual counselor. the focal energy of her dharma is connecting to spiritual path that will allow her a broad access and undestanding to all different kinds of people.

Mercury in Scorpio in the 6th= attracted to information that reveals the mystery behind why things are the way they are. This information is used as a way to help others/ fix things/ mechanically understanding how life functions and be able to assist people based on that understanding. Mercury conj SN, square those 4 planets in 4th= this attraction to knoweldge, and the use of that knoweldge/information/communication has been pivotal in maintaiing security. we can say her life depended on it. in the same sense, she has also used the power and wit of her mind to control and manipulate.

Venus in Capricorn in the 8th= Her inner chat is about trusting her intuitive feminine wisdom- naturally rising above the consensus opinions and ideas of sexuality/ social oppression and sexual abuse.

Mars in Virgo in the 4th= She can act on her Soul's Desire by cultivating a critical perspective on how she is taking care of herself. This implies a devotion and service to taking creating home/ taking care of emotional needs. She will instincively act as a mother to provide for her deepset needs, as well as those who are in her "family" network. This is a strong degree of self awareness that allows her to correct ways in which she neglects emotional/nurturing needs. squaring nodes= over focused on controlling everything leads to complete loss of control/misdirected emotional energy.

Jupiter Conj sun- blows up the mission statement of the sun. sag 7th- Appreciating other people and opening up to broader horizons and persepctives, teaching= very good thing to do.

Saturn in Leo in the 4th- becoming a responsible care taker of self intimacy and love.

Uranus gemini second= intent to liberate from prevailing trends, thoughts ideas and opinions that generally constitute the basis for sexuality/survival etc.. This takes her deep into her interior to find her truest deepest resources no matter how much they that differentiates her from her enviroment.
retrograde= over did it in the past. didn't know how to rebel against her own inner status quo- was too outwardly focused and didn't know how to truly liberate w/out being subject to oppression.
Im going to need help with interpreting the meaning of uranus inconjunct nodes/mercury when we get there

Neptune Libra 5th= The intent to be exactly who she is. In that, she humbly knows herself as an instrument of Truth. her own sense of self and specialness is a manifestation of divine will. The innosence of being a child. letting go of self image so that she can naturally project her self image.

Ok, so I think I'll keep it at that b4 putting it all together with aspects and all. Once I do that, I'll address the comments and questions you asked in your earlier response.
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Lia
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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2009, 12:13 PM »

Hi Ari,

May I suggest thinking over this chart via considering the followings:
 
1) Pluto is mainly unconscious in all of us. Although we're going to manifest it is not conscious. So in regards to the "control" issue you were talking about doesn't seem to click in....with a 4th pluto there is indeed an emotional intensity in the soul, but it doesn't know it.

2) Where the s.node falls in is what we have done definitely a LOT of times, that's a conscious approach to life. Even if the soul has a skipped step symbol it still the s.node which has been developed via a great length of time when there is a skipped step something is missed out on something is misunderstood somewhere along the line which makes the soul stuck. (By the way every T-square represents this kind of "being stuck" in consciousness in different degrees of intensity, depending on the symbols and the rest of the chart.)In this case the s.node is in the 6th house and although it starts with libra, the s.node is in scorpio. This correlates to our intentions, our motivations amongst other things. S.node being here would suggest a soul who have desired and made efforts to improve and purify it's soul's intentions: a lot of work trying to sort out, analyse, discriminate and improve itself.
To become aware of it's own reasons so to speak, and the fact that there has been some sort of guilt within the soul for which the soul was trying to "atone" for a long long time is also symbolised here.

3) The problem with the nodal axis is that it is one of the MAJOR weights in our self conscious consciousness. We are so used to our s.node we can't even recognise it.  Also it needs to taken into consideration the original trauma (chiron) which I mentioned above as one general story but that has been repeated more than once in different dresses.....which marked the beginning of the current evolutionary cycle. An evolutionary cycle is trying to culminate with the n.node falling in the 12th. This is important to understand. We are talking about at least a few thousands years culmination intention here. So we need to be very careful about the actual meaning of the symbols.... (i.e. conj. s.node= the WHOLE evolutionary cycle is directly related to this) Also, let me suggest a thought here: scorpio has an interesting correlation: entrapment. When s.node is scorpio the soul felt for a very long time being ENTRAPPED. In something in some ways. Also the fact that the 6th/12th axis is the archetype for (amongst other things) the sado/masochistic psychology. Yet let's remember it is also the archetype of spiritual development and ideas beliefs etc...the soul being in the 1st spiritual it is very very important here. 
Everything else comes after we understand this underlying pattern along with the skipped steps (meaning even though the soul was trying to get out of its own self imposed entrapment it was not able to yet!)

4) Every "entrapment" is always with no EXCEPTION based on an underlying misunderstand. Deeply ingrained in the soul. Can you unravel what could this particular soul's misunderstanding be here: 6th house s.node in Scorpio: wanting to atone for something that is fundamentally inherent to the soul (scorpio). What's going to happen when we try to do that? Is it not distortion? And what capr. venus and saturn in 4th symbolises in this case? What has been distorted here? Why?   
The soul in this case perceived itself as "not good enough" for whatever reasons but the result was trying to deny (6th house) a part of itself which it thought was "not okay". This particularly relates to close intimate relationships (scorpio). But it also relates to secrets that the soul was trying to deny. Why?  What else is the 12/6th house correlates to? The beliefs of inferiority/superiority which leads to sado masochism. What was the preveiling spiritual teachings of the last few thousands years?
Remember the wound of chiron the start of this cycle is pointing back that far...12th house n.node a whole BIG evolutionary cycle is trying to culminate here.....
In short can we see here the issue of MASOCHISM that the soul willfully put on itself...(willful:scorpio and mars...both say the same thing: mars in virgo scorpio s.node in 6th)  it was played out in many ways but very intensely in the emotionally closest relationships, family and partners...(4th ruler of the scorpio s.node)

5) Attracting people (Venus) who will be both, suppressive of their own emotions and will suppress/oppress the emotions of the soul. (venus in capr. in the 8th is HOW the soul attracts. Question again is why?)  So in this case FORCEFULLY suppressive partners. (scorpio s.node +capr. venus as the ingredients of the kinds of relationships =playing out its need for "atonement" via sado/masochism:  likely physical abuse next to the emotional psychological abuse) So as for trying to 2control everything" have a second look: for it is very likely that the soul was not able to control much of anything for a long time  especially relative to it's most immediate familial environment either as a child or an adult. (sat. moon conj. in the 4th with pluto)

The real question is why the soul has chosen these kinds of experiences? Can you try it again from here?

If we can perceive the picture this way and now we put in the fact that the soul is in the 1st spiritual what could be the real causative factor for the active and severe masochism that is actually played out in this chart?
There is always a big fat misunderstanding in each one of us in some ways, what we're trying to recover from...what is this chart this soul misunderstanding,...what is the half truth half illusion and how was that DISTORTED within it's consciousness and why?



6) What pluto in the 4th suggesting here? Is it not the fact that the soul unconsciously waiting for positive feedback, love, acceptance etc.  from OTHERS, yet attracting others in close relationships who will give something very different to say the least as "feedback" in close partner and familial relationships. Which then affects, confuses and distorts the self image. Why?

This chart indeed is a good example how it is so easy to make false judgments based on misunderstandings and how easy it is to overlook the real problem and yet think that a soul done something else wrong....it sure doe things wrong as we all do, but WHY? What is the bottomline here and relative to that bottomline what was the soul reaction?

By the way, with this chart pattern one needs to be very careful, the soul's sensitivity is at peak. (4th house stellium) It is very possible that the soul will take every and any feedback very sensitively and personally of course. (This one you pointed out Ari right, that's true, but there IS a reason for it and that's the bottomline of the chart.) Reason being the soul will “hear” via the capr. filter of venus, it will hear “judgment” even when it is not intended. The CONDITIONED inner messages relating to itself has become negative and this negative inner “hearing” will overlay anything the soul hears...this is one of the reason why the soul has attracted the wrong type of people in the past those who at first say all the good things, all the accepting acknowledging etc. things YET they have an ulterior agenda that the soul will found out only too late...this sensitivity makes the soul susceptible to fall “prey” to the so called “silver tongue devil” type...as long as the n.node and ppp isn’t embraced. But question is what prevented the soul to arrive there and why was it stuck in the s.node? 

Does this make sense Ari? Do you mind to start over?  Grin Roll Eyes
For the truth is that, when we misunderstand the bottomline of a chart we will misinterpret the whole lot even though we may have some good insights in-between YET the overall interpretation will be misleading...


Love and blessings,

Lia

 




« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 12:42 PM by Lia » Logged
ari moshe
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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2009, 12:59 AM »

lia, you rock! i appreciate this a lot.

I do want to start over.
First, i want to understand why reading things like sado-maso would be inappropriate for a first stage spiritual. my only hunch is that if a soul is currently in spiritual state, it implies that the karmic processes in this life relate to the choices they have previously made that would be appropriate for a first stage spiritual to be addressing. in other words, first stage spiritual wont be relating to their evolutionary intent through the karmic process of any other evolutionary state. therefore, we must read past lives from the perspective of first stage spiritual- thus excluding sado maso. Is this correct?
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Lia
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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2009, 08:04 AM »

Hi Ari,

Well right the contrary it is INDEED appropriate to apply sado/masochism in a spiritual state! Absolutely appropriate it just needs to be UNDERSTOOD in a way that it will play out in the souls' consciousness. I.e. in this case the soul believed IT IS what god ordained, and believed that masochism is the way to spiritually grow...
If a soul believe that it is inherently "sinful" (for heaven's sake it is NOT what all kinds of patriarchal religions are teaching? :-) what will be the consequence for a soul in the spiritual state? Would it NOT want to do what it thinks god wants from it?

For this is the whole point, the moment the soul believed in that started to do everything it could RELATIVE TO WHAT IT BELIEVED (relative to the spiritual teachings  of any life time) to obey god's will...to "atone" for what ever is "not perfect" within it, relative to those BELIEFS...

It is very very important to understand sado/masochism in the spiritual state! It is the very reason for this soul (and many others) for perceiving itself as somehow "not good enough".

Imagine that: a soul in the spiritual eventually believes that everything sexual (scoprio) is a sin....Can you see in this chart that is the BEGINNING of this very cycle, the soul have been a highly sexual being and used that sexuality as a means to evolve it's consciousness to further its' spiritual state....then it was judged as an absolute sin. Right the soul at one point believed it was true. So it was trying to sacrifice that (taurus, sensuality is in the 12the) the soul thought OK if that's not right I am over with that.

Sure :-)) WILL THAT ACTUALY HAPPEN IN ACTUAL REALITY? Can you get rid of something natural? Look at venus: the soul SUPPRESED thought it was wrong, judged it's attraction and sexual urges wrong! (mars also! Typically wasn't honest about those things for believing they were wrong.)
When we believe something eventually we will try to live accordingly....that's where the real dishonesty started the denial started...i.e.: my goodness how can I have sexual desires when I am suppose to be all "pure" and without it all....sooner or later god itself makes us see when we are not honest to ourselves....
So what the soul done then? Was trying to ATONE for it...atone for the sin, atone for something it judged wrong at the first place...
This is the start here...the original thing is a total absolute bullseye ALWAYS when a soul decided (scorpio) to do something totally unnatural....
This is the starting point here, masochism was the EXPECTED and ENDORSED way for spiritual development during the last few thousand of years...
Look what's the ruler of neptune (our greatest illusions relative to how we perceive it) what was the belief with that capr. venus? To totally SUPPRESS the senses for they are wrong sinful etc. etc....

The story starts from here in essence...the soul at one point decided to suppress something natural within itself because it believed it was wrong, it thought this is what's "good" this is god wants .....

It all starts from by that initial misunderstanding....of course not at once but via several life time when the soul was made feel dirty and bad etc. ....but when the belief eventually taken in, it becomes the operative factor of everything that comes after...then the manifold consequences the reaction to all this etc. etc. develop through time via many many lives many events and the final eventual intent in all that is to learn from it and remove/recover the original misunderstanding as the causative factor behind it all.......

Does this make more sense this way?  Smiley
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ari moshe
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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2009, 11:02 AM »

thank you! Now i feel like i finally "got" scorpio in the 6th.

So we're looking at a soul that has learned to see itself as inherantly flawed (6th) based on the nature of it's very desires (sorpio). That naturally created a lot of guilt and thus the need to atone for that guilt.

Coming back to Pluto- the soul has desired to inhabit it's own security. the problem was, the soul also believed that there was also something wrong with it. in order to establish security, the soul has chosen a family, tribe, hertiage (4th house) that persecuted her for who she is/what she does.

This persecution, catalyzed the tendency within the soul to further punish itself. all of life in some way reflected back to the soul the impurity it felt in itself (scorpio 6). The Taurus nn also being squared implies the occasional supression of sexuality all together, being celibate or trying to be pure. but ultimately being that what is supressed becomes distorted- her sexuality HAD to express itself in some way, and this is where we can read the pattern of masochism (scorpio 6).

Quote
4) Every "entrapment" is always with no EXCEPTION based on an underlying misunderstand. Deeply ingrained in the soul. Can you unravel what could this particular soul's misunderstanding be here: 6th house s.node in Scorpio: wanting to atone for something that is fundamentally inherent to the soul (scorpio). What's going to happen when we try to do that? Is it not distortion? And what capr. venus and saturn in 4th symbolises in this case? What has been distorted here? Why?

So adding to what I just said- the intense degree of sensitivity and awareness of how her culture and family judged sexuality and love. her very nature as a sexual being has been distorted. As a female in past lives she has been an authority of sorts that helped others with healing- using knowledge and by being naturally connected to feminine consciousness: herbs, sexuality etc (venus in cap 8th functioning through scorpio 6th). Also saturn moon in leo in the 4th= matriarch. At some point or another her practices, and her role was no longer acceptable by society. The unconditional love and acceptance became judgement and persectution. This has served the purpose for her soul to detach from relying on others to feel loved and find that within (ppp), setting the stage for a long evolutionary journey.
  
Quote
The soul in this case perceived itself as "not good enough" for whatever reasons but the result was trying to deny (6th house) a part of itself which it thought was "not okay". This particularly relates to close intimate relationships (scorpio). But it also relates to secrets that the soul was trying to deny. Why?  What else is the 12/6th house correlates to? The beliefs of inferiority/superiority which leads to sado masochism. What was the preveiling spiritual teachings of the last few thousands years?
Remember the wound of chiron the start of this cycle is pointing back that far...12th house n.node a whole BIG evolutionary cycle is trying to culminate here.....
In short can we see here the issue of MASOCHISM that the soul willfully put on itself...(willful:scorpio and mars...both say the same thing: mars in virgo scorpio s.node in 6th)  it was played out in many ways but very intensely in the emotionally closest relationships, family and partners...(4th ruler of the scorpio s.node)

5) Attracting people (Venus) who will be both, suppressive of their own emotions and will suppress/oppress the emotions of the soul. (venus in capr. in the 8th is HOW the soul attracts. Question again is why?)  So in this case FORCEFULLY suppressive partners. (scorpio s.node +capr. venus as the ingredients of the kinds of relationships =playing out its need for "atonement" via sado/masochism:  likely physical abuse next to the emotional psychological abuse) So as for trying to 2control everything" have a second look: for it is very likely that the soul was not able to control much of anything for a long time  especially relative to it's most immediate familial environment either as a child or an adult. (sat. moon conj. in the 4th with pluto)

I'll stop here for now and await further response. Thank you for this guidance. I hope this is meaningful and educational for other forum members as well!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 11:20 AM by ari moshe » Logged
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