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Wendy
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« Reply #15 on: Jul 08, 2011, 09:50 AM »

Hi Ellen,

Love everything you said Ellen--SO TRUE!

Just want to triple ditto this one! This is in the the past now, though; I now know (I didn't know it for most of my life) that it's their problem when they can't deal with emotions (mine, their own or anyone else's), not mine.  

MOST OF THE WORLD IS NOT IN SELF-RESPONSIBILITY WITH THEIR EMOTIONS, THUS THEY ARE PROJECTED OUTWARD, WHEN REAL HEALTHY EMOTIONAL EXPRESSION COMES OUT PEOPLE JUST CAN'T HANDLE IT--ONE THING THAT THE SPIRITUAL NEW AGE WORLD SUGGESTS IS NOT FEELING, BUT IF YOUR KARMIC LESSON IS TO BECOME EMOTIONALLY SELF-RELIANT THAN EMOTIONAL OVERFLOW IS NECESSARY WHILE FORMING THE CONTAINER.

And I see that it is truly a great gift to allow oneself to have and be present with one's emotions and thus be better able to allow another to have/express/be present with theirs. BEAUTIFUL

But in fact what was happening was that I was simply having my emotions and simply needing space to have those.  People tend to think they have to caretake YES BECAUSE THEY ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THEIR OWN EMOTIONS.  And Cancer picks up on this, feeling that it must be so about it - that it must be caretaken and that it is being manipulative...  It is an enormously tricky thing and has taken me years to sort out.)  Anyway, this has been a very good lesson for me. It is interesting to me, too, as I've reflected on this.  
« Last Edit: Jul 08, 2011, 11:12 AM by Wendy » Logged
Wendy
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« Reply #16 on: Jul 08, 2011, 09:54 AM »

There is so much richness in this thread, comments continue to emerge Cheesy!

The irony of this to me, Wendy, is that the very thing Cancer/4th is needing is to get in touch with their own inner knowing - their own emotions and knowing that come from that - to know who they are at an egoic level.  I don't see how that's possible with someone directing you to an end s/he sees for you...(I have had numerous less than optimal therapeutic/healing/counseling experiences for this very reason...)...  I'm a big fan of Carl Rogers.  His Sun sign was Cancer if I remember.  He really seemed to get this.[/b]

All of the folks who have helped me the most (professionals and friends) have strong water to their makeup.  Mainly Scorpio-Cancer-Capricorn folks with loads of integrity and strong Aquarius Sag too to ensure radical truth in support of evolution.

Aquarius is the sign in my 4th house which contains Chiron, Black Moon Lilith and Juno, and to me this means that I have been liberating myself from outdated family structures, while at the same time being able to be of service through healing family issues (Chiron), applying myself to the ongoing study of astrology (Aquarius), being a natural woman (BML), and learning how to be emotionally self-reliant within a self-sufficient relationship (Juno).

I feel this is true for me as well Linda.  With Uranus Pluto Venus in the 4th, my role in the family was to break free from unconscious ancestral emotional baggage, including my own, and awaken the family to deeper truths and healing (which has happened) about family patterns and structure.

I too have Juno in Aquarius along with Pallas Athene, thus I am truly committed to the revolution of my soul and its intent, no matter what. 

Peace,
Wendy
« Last Edit: Jul 08, 2011, 11:26 AM by Wendy » Logged
PatriciaW
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« Reply #17 on: Jul 08, 2011, 12:11 PM »


Ellen said.... <<This is in the the past now, though; I now know (I didn't know it for most of my life) that it's their problem when they can't deal with emotions (mine, their own or anyone else's), not mine.  And I see that it is truly a great gift to allow oneself to have and be present with one's emotions and thus be better able to allow another to have/express/be present with theirs.  I also know that it is OK to have my emotions acknowledged.  That doesn't mean anyone has to DO them for me or take care of them for me or whatever (though that certainly took me some time to figure out, ie, for most of my lifeI didn't know that's what I was needing.  I now know that I DO, ABSOLUTELY, within the context of relationship, need it to be ok to have the emotions I am having and that's ALL I was ever needing.  Period.  (Cancer also imprints its environment so getting to the truth of this has been revelatory, ie, taking on other people's feelings/beliefs that I'm being manipulative and then believing that to be true about me.  But in fact what was happening was that I was simply having my emotions and simply needing space to have those.  People tend to think they have to caretake.  And Cancer picks up on this, feeling that it must be so about it - that it must be caretaken and that it is being manipulative...  It is an enormously tricky thing and has taken me years to sort out.) >>>>

Ellen I think what you said above is what I was also intimating... The polarity point .. CAP has within that archetype...reality- differing realities and limitations as well as boundary(ies). So to me it's a balance between, owning what belongs to oneself, often that insight comes from 'running it thru ones internal system' what is being mirrored, as well as NOT owning what doesn't belong to oneself...by looking at what is being mirrored :-)

 Anyway, this has been a very good lesson for me. It is interesting to me, too, as I've reflected on this.  I do not wish to deny the very real potential for emotional manipulation, but in the work I did as a nursing assistant for many years and as I reflect on the relationships I've had with counselors and healers and others, it has really struck me that what others often define as "manipulativeness" is really just their own inability to allow another to have the space to have their emotions.  It is a tricky line.  I HAVE also experienced being manipulated.  But, often, even that, as I think about it, can be traced back to a structure/system that is just tremendously out of whack and so very basic needs cannot be met, which leads to tremendous distortion.  Ultimately it's what the Soul has chosen, but I don't think that means we ignore the realities of the system that created the environment.


Addition:  Patricia, I just read your post and I would be curious re: your feedback to what I've written here.....

I think what you wrote about manipulation is a very valid truth for your emotional reality and seems like you did a lot of work to come to your realizations!!. I would only say IN GENERAL that because the Cancerian emotional dynamics (moon dynamic) can relate back to very infant-like emotions, when we are in the grip of those..others can feel we are being manipulative. Simply cause when you are a baby and cry to get attention for a need to be met..it is expected (well at least by healthy parents)...but as an adult it can been seen as being emotionally manipulative. So I wouldn't discount that emotional manipulation is a function of displaced emotions within this archetype...ie.. in ALL of us since we all have a moon...a 4th house and Cancer archetype somewhere in our charts :-)  Did I adress what you wanted me to comment on?
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Wendy
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« Reply #18 on: Jul 08, 2011, 12:19 PM »

Okay here goes with a few Cancer influenced charts.  The first one is my sister's (for this thread I will call her Kelly). She was first born, and my parents were not married when my mother got pregnant.  Her parents wanted her to have an abortion and go to college, but she refused.  Married my father and gained the love she had longed for via my father's expressive family.



Main Cancer themes in sister's chart:  Rising Cancer, Pluto conjunct the Moon (2nd house), 4th house Neptune conjunct Venus in Scorpio.

Kelly and I have had many lives together.  We were raised in a moderately religious home, but nothing too severe. The wildness of the 70's is what impacted us the most.  I'm not sure what evolutionary state she is, though many times I feel she is consensus, yet when her true self peeks out, once in a while (via therapy), she is very intuitive and conscious, but she always go back into survival mode and following the collective paradigm, rather than listen to her own inner self.  Her dream state is immense and though she is a Sun Sag, she expresses more of Cancer Scorpio themes than anything.

She wanted to be a social worker, but was ridiculed by grandmother to be something more.  As she moved into her early adolescent years, her innate sexual yet shy nature appeared, but she was shamed for being herself.  She loved earth tones and was told the were plain and boring, that blue was more of her color.  

Without going into all of the details, she became pregnant at 13 and my parents forced her to have an abortion.  She then became pregnant 3 more times before she was 19.  All of pregnancies were aborted.  The family theme was to suppress life, not honor the creative juice that my sisters and I wanted so much to express.  My mother regretted having children, and told us so on a regular basis.  Kelly being the oldest had the most cognitive exposure to our mother's depressive mis-directed emotional projections, which only stopped when she died from diabetic drug addicted heart attack (spleen Cancer themes).  Our mother could also be fun, but she was way out of balance.

Both my parents had sexual affairs with Kelly's most intimate relationships.  My father with Kelly's girlfriend and my mother, with Kelly's boyfriend.  Total betrayal, on top of the abandonment issues and everything else.  

Kelly has been in therapy for the last nine years, has intense food addiction--she weighs close to two hundred pounds, also was heavily into drugs when younger, before she had her son.  Kelly has a very difficult time with boundaries. I feel this is because her entire energy field is torn open and there is no containment.  The times she has come close to coming into her power, accessing her deeply repressed emotions, and awakening her sexual energy, she can only do so for very short periods of time before shutting back down.  

I believe she is in an intense state of PTSD most of the time, and has been suicidal for many years, on anti-depressants.  She has never attempted suicide, but has very low self-esteem and avoids her PPP--Pisces 8th house, because the Cancer 4th house themes are not addressed--Neptune Venus Scorpio.

All of that said, Kelly is also very firey.  A Sag sun in the 4th, with NN in Leo and Mars in Leo in the 1st, in a t-square with SN Aquarius in the 7th, and 4th house planets.  

I have tried to understand her karmic nature, but have been too close possibly and also still cognitively comprehending the EA paradigm and Cancerian themes of emotional self-sufficiency myself to see this clearly.

It has been painful to watch, and in the most recent year I have detached a great deal because she has been so fixed on not allowing anyone in.  She doesn't trust anyone, other than me and her therapist, meaning she doesn't get real with anyone other than us.  I set a boundary with her last year that I didn't want that kind of burden, that is was unhealthy for both of us.  She responded well and reached out, but was set back when our other sister went into crisis and her son was arrested for possession of marijuana.

Kelly gets totally fixed in a traumatic state and dives deep into work, gives all her power to an employer that she hates, and focuses on making money (2nd house Pluto), rather than trusting into the depth of her feelings and in Spirit (Pisces 8th house-Venus 4th).

Delusion, deception, confusion in the 4th, Neptune Venus squares Saturn in Aquarius, SN dispositor Uranus in 2nd conjunct retro Pluto, retro Ceres, and Moon.  Mars seemed to be the key, accessing her anger in a healthy way leading her to self-love, and to her PPP.  

Also, I lived with her for a short period of time, three years ago.  She could not deal with the regular mirror I presented for her, and felt I was always emotionally challenging her to take responsibility for what arose in her.  She said she would rather die than deal with the feelings and reflections that were coming up.

Her resistance is huge.  I guess it mirrors how big her wounds are (Jupiter Chiron) and hides her ability to transform them into medicine.  I guess extremes are part of this too--7th house SN, dispositor in opposition to Jupiter Chiron, swinging from one extreme to another.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Wendy
« Last Edit: Jul 08, 2011, 12:35 PM by Wendy » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #19 on: Jul 08, 2011, 04:32 PM »


Ellen said.... <<This is in the the past now, though; I now know (I didn't know it for most of my life) that it's their problem when they can't deal with emotions (mine, their own or anyone else's), not mine.  And I see that it is truly a great gift to allow oneself to have and be present with one's emotions and thus be better able to allow another to have/express/be present with theirs.  I also know that it is OK to have my emotions acknowledged.  That doesn't mean anyone has to DO them for me or take care of them for me or whatever (though that certainly took me some time to figure out, ie, for most of my lifeI didn't know that's what I was needing.  I now know that I DO, ABSOLUTELY, within the context of relationship, need it to be ok to have the emotions I am having and that's ALL I was ever needing.  Period.  (Cancer also imprints its environment so getting to the truth of this has been revelatory, ie, taking on other people's feelings/beliefs that I'm being manipulative and then believing that to be true about me.  But in fact what was happening was that I was simply having my emotions and simply needing space to have those.  People tend to think they have to caretake.  And Cancer picks up on this, feeling that it must be so about it - that it must be caretaken and that it is being manipulative...  It is an enormously tricky thing and has taken me years to sort out.) >>>>

Ellen I think what you said above is what I was also intimating... The polarity point .. CAP has within that archetype...reality- differing realities and limitations as well as boundary(ies). So to me it's a balance between, owning what belongs to oneself, often that insight comes from 'running it thru ones internal system' what is being mirrored, as well as NOT owning what doesn't belong to oneself...by looking at what is being mirrored :-)

 Anyway, this has been a very good lesson for me. It is interesting to me, too, as I've reflected on this.  I do not wish to deny the very real potential for emotional manipulation, but in the work I did as a nursing assistant for many years and as I reflect on the relationships I've had with counselors and healers and others, it has really struck me that what others often define as "manipulativeness" is really just their own inability to allow another to have the space to have their emotions.  It is a tricky line.  I HAVE also experienced being manipulated.  But, often, even that, as I think about it, can be traced back to a structure/system that is just tremendously out of whack and so very basic needs cannot be met, which leads to tremendous distortion.  Ultimately it's what the Soul has chosen, but I don't think that means we ignore the realities of the system that created the environment.


Addition:  Patricia, I just read your post and I would be curious re: your feedback to what I've written here.....

I think what you wrote about manipulation is a very valid truth for your emotional reality and seems like you did a lot of work to come to your realizations!!. I would only say IN GENERAL that because the Cancerian emotional dynamics (moon dynamic) can relate back to very infant-like emotions, when we are in the grip of those..others can feel we are being manipulative. Simply cause when you are a baby and cry to get attention for a need to be met..it is expected (well at least by healthy parents)...but as an adult it can been seen as being emotionally manipulative. So I wouldn't discount that emotional manipulation is a function of displaced emotions within this archetype...ie.. in ALL of us since we all have a moon...a 4th house and Cancer archetype somewhere in our charts :-)  Did I adress what you wanted me to comment on?

Hi Patricia,

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond.  Yes, I understand what you are saying and it answers much of what I was looking for but I have always, always, since working as a nursing assistant and always hearing about how this patient or that is "manipulative" simply NEVER gotten it (except in extreme, intractable incidences, which were few, and even then I felt it could always be traced back to a faulty system or profoundly neglected early needs, etc.).  I guess I have a hard time with the use of the word "manipulative" to describe what is a normal effort at development, normal in that, if it didn't have the chance to develop in childhood, it will continue to seek opportunity for development until it gets the chance for it (as it should, imho!).  Because our world IS screwed up, this often means that biological age and emotional/spiritual/psychological/etc age are not in sync.  I understand COMPLETELY if a person comes up against an as yet unmet developmental need in another and says, "Nope, can't go there."  That to me is healthy.  EVERYONE should know what they can/can't do, what they are willing/not willing to do in relation to/with others.  But I don't see how that means the person is "manipulative".  Perhaps I'm getting tripped up on the word.  To me, manipulative is something intractable and I think perhaps a little sinister (like the effort is to undo the other in some way).  But simply seeking to get one's needs met, which is normal and natural, regardless of the age, I guess I don't see a problem with that.  Then you just have a conversation, hopefully.  When I was a nursing assistant my job was to try to meet people's needs as best I could.  If they asked for something and I couldn't provide it, I would say I couldn't and why.  It was rare when I felt the need was unreasonable.  And those WERE difficult experiences.  Maybe the issue here revolves around the honoring of "no".  Have your needs and ask for them, whatever they may be.  But also honor another's "no".  Perhaps when that is not so, that is manipulative?  I just get hung up on the word.  I think often the system doesn't work and we blame the other (in this case "patient") for reacting to that, as they should, really.  I felt it was used way too often and way quickly.  But perhaps I'm wrong about that............Does this make sense?  Can you understand where I'm having trouble with this whole aspect of the Cancer archetype?  Is "to be seen as" something the same as BEING that? (as an example).  I guess the one final thing I wanted to say is that to me, often, the word "manipulative" is used in place of recognizing that one cannot meet the need of another and not being able to accept that.  Again, I DO think manipulation does occur (drug addiction, ie, - Pisces trine).  This is actually an interesting point.  Perhaps MANIPULATION can be defined more as an attempt to get FALSE needs met........?  To violate the other (violate the trust - Scorpio trine) in one's efforts.....  Sorry if this is rambling.  Just SOOOO wrestle with this whole concept!

Warmest regards,
Ellen

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Wendy
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« Reply #20 on: Jul 08, 2011, 05:43 PM »

Hi Ellen,

I was thinking about the manipulation of Cancer and how is plays out, unconsciously.  I have Lucifer in Cancer, plus all the 4th house stuff mentioned earlier.  Until I became aware of my projected emotions and began to re-parent via therapy and self-care, I was unconsciously manipulating, generally speaking.  

My energy field was screaming for love.  I literally can remember craving love and acceptance so deeply as a teenager (my parents were really checked out).  Soon after that I met my first boyfriend.  I was completely starving emotionally, and thus I would have licked the dirt off the sidewalk if he asked me to.  Two years later, when he slept with another girl, I was devastated, because I invested everything in him. I was losing any sense of self I previously had, and as time went on the pit of emotional projection, seeking another to take care of me deepened, and my victimhood increased.  Prior to hitting an intense bottom, I was literally living through my boyfriend.  When we broke up, I had physical withdrawal symptoms because my core was too open, depending outwardly on another.  This is manipulation.  Yes I loads of traumatic experiences, yes my parents didn't meet my needs...but without their service to my soul, I would not have the awareness's I have today.  It took me years of hating them, emoting over and over to release the pattern and even be able to take in that my soul chose this (Louise Hay really pissed me off in the beginning).

I think manipulation can be looked at in many ways: consensus, individuated, spiritual, in terms of the Cancer archetype.  All levels express it and probably express in more extreme levels when less consciousness is present.  

Last summer, I ran into another man I dated (Mars in Cancer opp Saturn Cap).  We hadn't seen each other in twenty years and I could feel immediately that he was projected emotionally onto me--projecting all his unmet needs onto the ideal of being in relationship with me.  I suggested he slow down.  It was clear he hadn't done the deeper work.  We talked several weeks later and he told me, 'he didn't want to scare me, but he felt the same way now about me, as he did in the past'--he wanted to get married, have a baby, and I wanted to go to therapy and deal with my own inner baby!

Those scenarios have manipulation at their core, unconscious manipulation.  Consciously manipulating is of course the other side of the coin.  I see it happen all the time, in myself and others.  Whenever I feel/project that I cannot take care of myself, manage my life, I am projecting.  

Does this help Ellen?


« Last Edit: Jul 08, 2011, 05:53 PM by Wendy » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #21 on: Jul 08, 2011, 06:32 PM »

Hi Ellen,

I was thinking about the manipulation of Cancer and how is plays out, unconsciously.  I have Lucifer in Cancer, plus all the 4th house stuff mentioned earlier.  Until I became aware of my projected emotions and began to re-parent via therapy and self-care, I was unconsciously manipulating, generally speaking.  

My energy field was screaming for love.  I literally can remember craving love and acceptance so deeply as a teenager (my parents were really checked out).  Soon after that I met my first boyfriend.  I was completely starving emotionally, and thus I would have licked the dirt off the sidewalk if he asked me to.  Two years later, when he slept with another girl, I was devastated, because I invested everything in him. I was losing any sense of self I previously had, and as time went on the pit of emotional projection, seeking another to take care of me deepened, and my victimhood increased.  Prior to hitting an intense bottom, I was literally living through my boyfriend.  When we broke up, I had physical withdrawal symptoms because my core was too open, depending outwardly on another.  This is manipulation.  Yes I loads of traumatic experiences, yes my parents didn't meet my needs...but without their service to my soul, I would not have the awareness's I have today.  It took me years of hating them, emoting over and over to release the pattern and even be able to take in that my soul chose this (Louise Hay really pissed me off in the beginning).

I think manipulation can be looked at in many ways: consensus, individuated, spiritual, in terms of the Cancer archetype.  All levels express it and probably express in more extreme levels when less consciousness is present.  

Last summer, I ran into another man I dated (Mars in Cancer opp Saturn Cap).  We hadn't seen each other in twenty years and I could feel immediately that he was projected emotionally onto me--projecting all his unmet needs onto the ideal of being in relationship with me.  I suggested he slow down.  It was clear he hadn't done the deeper work.  We talked several weeks later and he told me, 'he didn't want to scare me, but he felt the same way now about me, as he did in the past'--he wanted to get married, have a baby, and I wanted to go to therapy and deal with my own inner baby!

Those scenarios have manipulation at their core, unconscious manipulation.  Consciously manipulating is of course the other side of the coin.  I see it happen all the time, in myself and others.  Whenever I feel/project that I cannot take care of myself, manage my life, I am projecting.  

Does this help Ellen?




Hi Wendy,

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this very difficult issue/question for me.  I appreciate your experience and what you have learned from it.  I DO understand what you and others are saying.  But to me "manipulation" is such a negative term - it fails to communicate (to me) any sense of understanding as to where/why the behaviors have come from and that, really, on a very basic level, they are understandable and make sense.  I guess to me it is, on the one hand, IMPORTANT to understand our patterns and to learn and grow beyond them - to learn to meet our own needs in healthy, mature ways - but to label the unmatured ways as "manipulative" - I just have a hard time hearing any kind of compassion or understanding coming through with that word.  I guess that's my beef with it.  It doesn't really help me to think of people's behavior (mine or others) in those terms.  To me it throws up a wall I guess in the form of a label.  And I resist that.  I'm not saying that I don't have behaviors that others might call "manipulative".  With all that 4th house energy - no doubt!  But it's not helpful for me to think about it in that way and it doesn't help my own healing/growth process to be in relationship with people who judge me in that way.  It ALSO doesn't help me to be in relationship with people who don't maintain good boundaries as there's no way to learn in that kind of situation.  So people with good boundaries, who care about me, and who don't judge me.  That's the formula that has helped me.  To me, ultimately, it's about learning to love and nurture oneself and to learn to receive love and nurturing.  I just find the word "manipulation" unhelpful in that process of discovery - whether it's in how people "frame" me, or how I "frame" others.......... I guess I'm not saying manipulation doesn't exist/isn't real.  I'm just saying it's not helpful for me to look at it in that way...  I don't feel it's about avoidance, either.  I feel it's about choosing a different lens......... If you think about it the other way around, ie, if someone "manipulated" me and that's how I framed it.... I'm not sure how I see how I LEARN anything from that.  In other words, it's all about the speck of wood in their eye and nothing about what I was clueless of/oblivious of in myself that led me to be "manipulated".  Don't know if that clarifies.  It is just a really difficult/sticky issue for me.  I appreciate your journey and the wisdom and healing that has come from that.

Warmest wishes,
Ellen
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #22 on: Jul 08, 2011, 07:05 PM »

Just a few thoughts on the chart Wendy posted.....As I look at the Pluto conj moon in the 2cnd in relation to SN in AQ in the 7th, what I see reiterates some of what you have said already. Conforming to, or being forced to conform to others expectations has been a way of life, causing personal splitting and fragmentation. Many past life scenarios pop into mind, but the strongest that comes into focus for me involves the death of children (in utero or otherwise) in sexual servitude or shameful scenarios. Such as… Being a ‘breeder’ slave..used to become impregnated repeatedly with children then suffering them being  taken away, getting pregnant as a prostitute or sexual slave and having to repeatedly abort or actually kill new borns and/or raise them to become sexual servants themselves  (leading to immense guilt -Virgo),  Also being impregnated by a religious figure ( Pisces/Virgo- Catholic church) and outed, killed and/or cast out(AQ) because of that…the imprint there , being the one who carries all the shame, betrayal by someone trusted, disillusionment etc.

Putting that into context of what you told us about her already….isn’t it interesting that in the womb her mother was almost forced to abort her, which she did not…but later, same Mother forced her to abort 3x’s?  Libra on the cusp of 4th house with BML there, Venus ruler of that house conj Nept and Lillith in Scorpio… Mother was put under pressure to ‘conform to others expectations’ but rebelled ( Lillith) but perhaps her rebellion was only a way to use the baby to get her own unresolved child needs met..by marrying your Father (BML in Libra conj 4th house cusp).  Pluto conj moon also reiterates that. The point being that all these pre-natal circumstances would be a replay symbolically of your sister’s personal karmic story. 

Pluto in the 2cnd retro is certainly going to make her quite isolated and running back to whatever little security she feels , coupled with the obvious trauma of the AQ SN. How sad that when she did reach for her authentic self – wanting to be a social worker ( Sag Sun- which is ruler of NN) she was shamed (6th house) , it seems she has- life after life-become so estranged from her authentic self that she will need a lot of help in this life to get back there. But look at NN conj the asc… the promise there is that if she can get back to her instinctual self…tune into what her natural gifts are she can overcome all that inherited guilt which blocks her knowing her authentic self.

A suggestion comes to mind that you might be able to (when the time is right for both of you) create a burial ritual for the present life aborted ones she had when she was younger. Doing that can have a few purposes… 1) to honor those spirits and make sure they are at rest, 2) Many times I work with women who have had abortions even in adulthood and with a clear conscious, but when we go deeper with that, quite frequently there are still unresolved guilt or other emotional dynamics, doing such a ritual would also be to let your sister connect with what is unresolved there from this life and others…
And give her the opportunity to ‘atone’ for any guilt that may be there by honoring the unborn spirits and laying them to rest. 3) to do this gently and with great respect is to also honor the part of her that went thru that as a young girl.
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #23 on: Jul 08, 2011, 07:09 PM »

Oh yeah.. I just noticed...CERES sandwiched inbewteen Pluto and Moon...yikes need I say more?
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PatriciaW
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« Reply #24 on: Jul 08, 2011, 07:51 PM »

Ellen said <<<<Perhaps MANIPULATION can be defined more as an attempt to get FALSE needs met........?  To violate the other (violate the trust - Scorpio trine) >>>>>

Well personally I feel that hit the nail on the head :-)

 I agree just the 'label' of manipulation for someone who is acting out unconcious emotional needs can certainly be harsh...considering we would use the word 'manipulation' for someone who consciously and with ill intent coerces another to get their needs met.

But again, in general, the Jewish grandmother who guilts her son because he doesn't show up enough for her - OI VEY!!... and the senator who uses his position of power, and maybe even offers whispers of love, to get in a hot interns pants are both essentially being manipulative to get their needs met ;-)

Yes as you pointed out a few times... our society does NOT foster healthy emotional expression of needs...nor did most of our childhood upbringing. Personally , I think like you expressed, I don't go around labeling people as manipulators because of their unresolved emotional dynamics... so I would say it is not a label you need to own!!
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Elen
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« Reply #25 on: Jul 08, 2011, 07:52 PM »

Hi Wendy,

Thanks for posting your sister's chart and for sharing some of her bio.  I still do not feel I am the greatest with charts but will try to look at it this weekend.  The thing that stuck out for me was her Mars in Balsamic phase to Pluto/Uranus, so my understanding is that this signifies that she has been working on all these themes for many, many lifetimes and is quite familiar with them.  Balsamic signifies releasing in preparation for the new.  I am not sure how to interpret this information in the context of your sister's bio at this time.  Need to think about it.  The Gibbous phase is the phase opposite the Balsamic, so perhaps that is in play - continually feeling thwarted by the world outside and thus continually retreating.  Mars (separating desires/the need to act) is finishing up in the first house (who am I?/instinctual).  While Pluto/Uranus are in the 2nd house (values/self-sufficiency).  The need to instinctually pursue creative purpose to solidify a more solid sense of self and values to help stabilize the trauma, perhaps. This would facilitate the release?  Again, will need to think about this.  Just interesting to me to have this juxtaposition present in the chart.......

Peace,
Ellen
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Linda
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« Reply #26 on: Jul 08, 2011, 07:57 PM »

Hello Patricia and everyone!

Wow - it's great to see this thread move so fast.

I'm so glad for your contribution Patricia as you are an EA expert.  


........being in the spiritual state of evolution does not necessarily mean that co-dependant dynamics or other emotional complexes such as alienation etc.. do not happen. They just happen with more conscious awareness (eventually)...with the underlying intention of bringing about a deeper relationship with the divine within.............  

I completely agree with you on this.  It's actually very heartening to read that people in the Spiritual evolutionary condition may still experience co-dependent dynamics or other emotional complexes, with the difference being that they are MORE AWARE of these dynamics than people in the other evolutionary states.


Because certainly it isn't the intention of the universe for you to be rejected, but thru mirroring it is only pointing out these things.

I find the universe is gentle - and in fact quite brilliant - in getting the lesson across through the use of other people mirroring any emotional imbalance, over-dependency, over-neediness or manipulation to me.  Phrased another way, if I am SO NEEDY, then can the other person really help me?  No.  I have learned this lesson over and over again.  Another person cannot provide the depth of HEALING that I am searching for - another person cannot do the inner work for me - that is my own responsibility.  This inner work naturally builds maturity and strength (Capricorn polarity) and redefines my self-image.

Nurturing the divine relationship within - the self-image or the sense of who I am from within myself - is the true way to healing.  Loving, accepting, nurturing, understanding and caring for that little girl within.  This is SELF-HELP.  Eventually transforming that wounded self-image into one of trust in the universe, and trust in oneself to heal oneself from within.  Where the broken wing is healed, and then allowed to soar.

It's great that we can "go within" and express the richness of our inner world here on the EA messageboard.  I am tuned into the natural strength, beauty, wateriness and UNdistortion of that inner world.  Cancer love leads to Piscean love.  This is the power to heal the world, by gently steering us away from the woundedness of the patriarchy so that natural matriarchal principles can flow once again.


Hello Ellen,

Personally I like the use the word "manipulation" as it is a good reminder of what I am leaving behind!  It is very strong medicine for me.  
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Elen
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« Reply #27 on: Jul 08, 2011, 08:01 PM »

Ellen said <<<<Perhaps MANIPULATION can be defined more as an attempt to get FALSE needs met........?  To violate the other (violate the trust - Scorpio trine) >>>>>

Well personally I feel that hit the nail on the head :-)

 I agree just the 'label' of manipulation for someone who is acting out unconcious emotional needs can certainly be harsh...considering we would use the word 'manipulation' for someone who consciously and with ill intent coerces another to get their needs met.

But again, in general, the Jewish grandmother who guilts her son because he doesn't show up enough for her - OI VEY!!... and the senator who uses his position of power, and maybe even offers whispers of love, to get in a hot interns pants are both essentially being manipulative to get their needs met ;-)

Thanks, Pat.  This makes sense to me...... Seems to make more sense to me when there are truly lopsided power imbalances......


Yes as you pointed out a few times... our society does NOT foster healthy emotional expression of needs...nor did most of our childhood upbringing. Personally , I think like you expressed, I don't go around labeling people as manipulators because of their unresolved emotional dynamics... so I would say it is not a label you need to own!!

Thank you, again....


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Elen
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« Reply #28 on: Jul 08, 2011, 08:09 PM »

Hello Patricia and everyone!

Wow - it's great to see this thread move so fast.

I'm so glad for your contribution Patricia as you are an EA expert.  


........being in the spiritual state of evolution does not necessarily mean that co-dependant dynamics or other emotional complexes such as alienation etc.. do not happen. They just happen with more conscious awareness (eventually)...with the underlying intention of bringing about a deeper relationship with the divine within.............  

I completely agree with you on this.  It's actually very heartening to read that people in the Spiritual evolutionary condition may still experience co-dependent dynamics or other emotional complexes, with the difference being that they are MORE AWARE of these dynamics than people in the other evolutionary states.


Because certainly it isn't the intention of the universe for you to be rejected, but thru mirroring it is only pointing out these things.

I find the universe is gentle - and in fact quite brilliant - in getting the lesson across through the use of other people mirroring any emotional imbalance, over-dependency, over-neediness or manipulation to me.  Phrased another way, if I am SO NEEDY, then can the other person really help me?  No.  I have learned this lesson over and over again.  Another person cannot provide the depth of HEALING that I am searching for - another person cannot do the inner work for me - that is my own responsibility.  This inner work naturally builds maturity and strength (Capricorn polarity) and redefines my self-image.

Nurturing the divine relationship within - the self-image or the sense of who I am from within myself - is the true way to healing.  Loving, accepting, nurturing, understanding and caring for that little girl within.  This is SELF-HELP.  Eventually transforming that wounded self-image into one of trust in the universe, and trust in oneself to heal oneself from within.  Where the broken wing is healed, and then allowed to soar.

It's great that we can "go within" and express the richness of our inner world here on the EA messageboard.  I am tuned into the natural strength, beauty, wateriness and UNdistortion of that inner world.  Cancer love leads to Piscean love.  This is the power to heal the world, by gently steering us away from the woundedness of the patriarchy so that natural matriarchal principles can flow once again.


Hello Ellen,

Personally I like the use the word "manipulation" as it is a good reminder of what I am leaving behind!  It is very strong medicine for me.
 
Yes, I can understand that.....  Thanks for what you wrote.  I highlighted what really struck me.  Beautiful.

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Linda
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« Reply #29 on: Jul 08, 2011, 08:21 PM »

Another inspiration comes to mind.......(T-Neptune through my 4th speaking now!)

Regardless of WHERE the nurturing love comes from - it can come from within - or it can be extended to us from without - or we can extend it out to others - is there really any difference in all of these expressions???  

If we are ALL ONE, that same healing force works within AND without.  It heals us within - it heals our external relationships - and it heals our world (the collective).  

The point is, it BEGINS from within (Cancer self-healing) - is then extended out to others (Scorpio transformational healing) - and influences our relationship with the Universe (Pisces divine healing).  This water triad is necessary for evolution to take place.

It just goes to show that caring and nurturing do not end in childhood - these qualities continue to be essential in adulthood (integrating into the Capricorn polarity).  
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