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Author Topic: Discerning the evolutionary condition of children...?  (Read 5409 times)
Steve
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« Reply #15 on: Jun 20, 2009, 01:10 AM »

Hi - Cardinal houses are intense because they represent major shifts or turning points - the natural squares/oppositions/conjunctions in the chart.

EA places a lot of importance on phases.  There are 8 phases in a circle, which makes every 45 degrees the beginning of the next phase.  Phases come in pairs, yang and yin, representing 90 degrees, 1/4 of the totality.  This is another reason cardinal is significant. 

I was going to link to an old transcript by Jeffrey on the cycle of phases and aspects, but I see its not on the website.  If you'd like to see this let me know and I'll post a link here.  Looking at houses and signs and aspects through the filter of phases sheds a lot of light on their significance, and the archetypes of the division of quadrants into thirds.  Basically, cardinal initiates (the new, as I described previously), fixed grounds and stabilizes what was initiated in cardinal, and mutable is like the culmination of the previous two, mutating into whatever is coming next, the pattern repeating again starting in the cardinal sign/house that follows.

The 15 degree midpoint of each of the fixed signs/houses corresponds to the beginning of the yin phase in the cycle of phases, as each phase is 45 degrees.  It's the midpoint between two adjacent cardinal points, in essence like the full moon point - half way through the current quarter of the cycle. 

In the system of 12 divisions, each quadrant has either yang-yin-yang or yin-yang-yin.   That transition from yang to yin and back itself is not easy, because we get used to the way it has been - yang is energy going OUT - yin requires the energy to reverse direction and go back to the center - like putting on the brakes when we have gotten used to stepping on the gas.  And vice versa - after a long stretch in yin we are used to being inward, and its an adjustment to start orienting outward again.  Back and forth, back and forth - stretching us, working us. 

The cardinal signs/houses contain their own paradoxes.  Cardinal is an instinctual need to initiate change.  Our sense of security is based on sameness, not on change.  Thus the very nature of cardinal insures that at certain points we are going to freak out a bit, because all the change we have been instinctually creating results in a loss of familiarity and known-ness.  This, at key points, results in the the loss of an emotional sense of safety/security, leading to a desire to STOP, to want to go inward to emotionally regroup - to ground and stabilize the new realities we have been initiating.  This is an inherent  and necessary part of the cardinal archetype.  It's especially pronounced in Cancer, but applies to all cardinal signs/houses - two steps forward, one step back.  The natural need to regroup and reground after taking two steps into new directions.  After a period of timeout, the cardinal instinct to initiate change again takes over, and we are back pursuing the next step forward again.
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Steve
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« Reply #16 on: Jun 22, 2009, 04:04 PM »

Hi Pam

Good, glad to help. 

I should post a mini-ad here also - we are in the final stages of getting Jeffrey's old workshop DVD's ready for sale.  My favorite one is Cycles of Becoming, which is 4 hours long.  The first hour is about the Transition of the Ages, from Pisces to Aquarius.  The next 3 hours are about phases and aspects.  I highly recommend this workshop to those serious about osmosing the EA paradigm.

When I was first learning EA, my first real breakthroughs in correlating EA mental "teachings"  with people's actual life events, patterns, behaviors, began when I started seeing the patterns of phases playing out in the life events and tendencies of people whose charts I was reading.  (I'm not claiming that everyone who studies EA is going to have a big breakthrough from learning about phases.  Just sharing my own experience.  For me, it made it all very real.)

The phases material is covered in much depth in the Pluto School courses.  But the Cycles of Becoming workshop goes into a lot more detail.  What I found is once I started grasping the natural paradigm of phases, it completely changed how I viewed the phenomenon of aspects. 

I began seeing them as milemarkers, marking out points of completion and change along the archetypal journey around a circle of a cycle.  (actually, more like one revolution around a 3 dimensional spiral than completing a 2 dimensional circle).  Each part of the circle (the journey) has its own archetypes.  The beginning (conjunction) is the birth of a new chapter.  All beginnings have Aries-like qualities - instinctual.  So we start seeing these archetypes not just in charts but taking place in outer and inner life - in a person's life, in the shifting of the seasons in nature, in the creation maturing and decay of cultures and civilizations - patterns, archetypes  which are the ways the Divine principles behind all creation manifest in dualistic time-space reality - through these blueprints, the archetypes. 

Other astrologers, such as Dane Rudhyar, had written about cycles and phases before.  But Jeffrey greatly deepened the concepts and applied them to all the planets and aspects, and all the spheres of life.

Anyway, wanted to let people know this excellent workshop DVD will shortly be available on the School of EA website.
Steve
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stephen
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« Reply #17 on: Jun 23, 2009, 07:37 AM »

Thanks Steve for this additional information.

  I am awaiting that 'paradigm shift' which happens when various differing source materials on the same subject are intensely studied.  This type of viewpoint alteration has come over me several times in the past, and I am eagerly looking forward when the EA Paradigm 'glasses' slip down over my mind's eye.

  To that end, the more information which can be studied with intensity, the better, since a certain phrase said in several ways can often allow one of those ways to 'boing' against one's own mind in a special personal way.  Personally, it seems that rereading, with full and absolute concentration, right before falling asleep allows the mind to continually review the information during sleep.
  I would like to suggest an attempt of that process to anyone who has difficulty with absorbing the intricacies of the EA Paradigm.  By the way, this is really a great way that you put it: "...osmosing the EA paradigm".

  In the front of JWG's book on 'Uranus: Freedom from the Known' , there is a listing of a large variety of JWG's study materials (video tapes, audio tapes, transcripts) for distribution.  I was wondering about the items in that listing, and am glad to see the EA Community preparing to provide additional study materials for the students.

Blessings to You, and thanks again,
Stephen
« Last Edit: Jun 28, 2009, 06:42 AM by stephen » Logged
seesaw
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 19, 2009, 05:04 PM »

"Or, alternatively, ask a child what they seek, and they will almost always request immediate gratification or something material, as perhaps is expected in a consensus-reality Soul.  "

One thing to consider is that there are few words used to request emotional/mental/spiritual/heart needs by anyone of any age.  When someone does request those needs, sometimes they are given repressive/oppressive/"false" responses from people.

Also, immediate gratification is important in an environment where you are no given the means to build relationships, daily choices, etc.  Ageism creates poverty and ignorance consciousness. (Actually, lack of love does that, but ageism is one "symptom")

I have seen others post websites here not directly EA, so here
is a good website:   www.consensual-living.com  It comes closest out of what I have seen in beginning on the basis that every person knows what they need no matter what age, is equal, and trusts the other is being honest.

Seesaw
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Lucius
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 19, 2009, 09:58 PM »

Seesaw - is english not your primary language?  Not to sound rude!  I am having difficutly understanding what you are talking about.

Folks sure do have the words to ask for what they want!  I'm not sure what you meant.  Second, I have no idea what 'ageism' is.

Once again, the idea of 'immediate gratification' being important when not being able to 'build a relationship' - ?

I have no idea what you're talking about & perhpas this is because you do not speak english well.

What's this to do with evolutionary astrology?  I'll be interested to hear if anyone else knows what you're saying!  Sorry - but, maybe this forum is not what you're seeking?
« Last Edit: Dec 19, 2009, 10:00 PM by Lucius » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #20 on: Dec 20, 2009, 04:49 PM »

"Or, alternatively, ask a child what they seek, and they will almost always request immediate gratification or something material, as perhaps is expected in a consensus-reality Soul.  "

One thing to consider is that there are few words used to request emotional/mental/spiritual/heart needs by anyone of any age.  When someone does request those needs, sometimes they are given repressive/oppressive/"false" responses from people.

Also, immediate gratification is important in an environment where you are no given the means to build relationships, daily choices, etc.  Ageism creates poverty and ignorance consciousness. (Actually, lack of love does that, but ageism is one "symptom")

I have seen others post websites here not directly EA, so here
is a good website:   www.consensual-living.com  It comes closest out of what I have seen in beginning on the basis that every person knows what they need no matter what age, is equal, and trusts the other is being honest.

Seesaw


Hi Lucius,
I'm new to EA - I've just started the course.  As I was thinking about your questions re: seesaw's post, what occurred to me was the emphasis that Jeffrey Green puts on understanding the culture in which a person is born into and is raised in.  I think that is the best way to approach seesaw's post.  Immediate gratification comes about, I believe he/she is saying when one's culture does not encourage genuine/meaningful relationship development/connection.  (I'm about to be booted off the public computer, so I have to end here.  I hope this makes sense...j)

Ellen
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Lucius
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« Reply #21 on: Dec 20, 2009, 09:26 PM »

Perhaps, Ellen, that is what is meant.  However, I do not agree!  Immediate gratification does not seem to be cultural, at least, not in the context that was being discussed - i.e., children and how to discern their evolutionary state.  Acutally, from what was posted it would seem the evolutionary state would correlate to more 'maturity' with regard to desires & their gratification, entirely aside and separate from cultural conditioning (i.e., a three year old in a consensus state won't react too differently across the board socially/culturally - it would also be true that a spiritual state three year old would not seek such immediate gratification also generally true despite social/culture condition - that's my grasp of the idea, anyway) .  Seesaw appeared to replying to that post/quote saying the fact that most folks are consensus and merely, blindly, 'desire' and desire most of what is set in front of them and they perceive they don't 'have'.  Seesaw quoted that apparently to give some rebuttal but, to my mind,  didn't refute this at all - but seemed to go on about...well, something and perhaps because of a language barrier I truly didn't get what the point was.  And if what you say is Seesaw's point - still makes no sense to me!

Still not sure what 'ageism' is.  Thanks for 'translating' and your thoughts!  
« Last Edit: Dec 20, 2009, 09:31 PM by Lucius » Logged
Steve
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 21, 2009, 10:24 AM »

To Ellen/Lucius:

Seesaw has been informed 3 times, in response to his self-centered needy unrelated-to-Evolutionary-Astrology posts, that this is a website for discussing Evolutionary Astrology as taught by Jeffrey Wolf Green.  His first post included statements of sympathy for misunderstood pedophiles, and it has not progressed much since then.

As you can see by his lack of response to both of your posts, he is not interested in dialog. He wants an audience to listen to his perspectives, and to tell him how to fill his unresolved need for love. Since neither of you fulfilled those intents of his, there is no response.

He has not gotten the message, clearly demonstrated by his posting a URL to a totally unrelated website aligned with his world views, exactly what he has been told 3 times this message board is not for.  Therefore he is now banned from this message board.

Thanks for trying to communicate this message to Seesaw.  Unfortunately he is not ready to hear it.
Steve
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Lia
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 21, 2009, 08:59 PM »

Seesaw,

Hope you don’t mind me adding to what has been communicated to you by others before. (On the other topics too that you started)
I try to approach it in a different way: seems like love is an important subject for you so I thought for this holiday season I share my thoughts with you; of course you can take it or leave it.

You see, love is not about demanding what we need or want (or think we want) - it is about to tune in and be able to perceive and GIVE what someone else REALLY needs or wants....that's where the basics of so called 'love' starts...

I truly hope you'd be able to develop that ability one day for THEN you'll discover that the world around you has always been filled with love - you just haven't noticed it before...

"There is a song silently singing in the depth of every soul; the people whose soul carry a beautiful song will 'hear' and 'see' everyone and everything as part of that beautiful song...." (rough interpretation from Hungarian lyrics)

So it's not about others, it's about the 'song' in your soul ...once you 'tune' to a different inner 'melody' you will experience a different world....when your soul can sing the inner song of love only then you won’t be ‘without it’ ever again....and that has nothing to do with anyone else, only you....

Once your soul can ‘sing’ that kind of a ‘song’ you’ll even discover that these EA notes to you were indeed filled with what you thought you were missing ....

Blessings and happy holidays,
Lia
P.S sorry guys for the 'off topic' :-)
« Last Edit: Dec 21, 2009, 09:14 PM by Lia » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #24 on: Dec 22, 2009, 04:16 PM »

Immediate gratification does not seem to be cultural, at least, not in the context that was being discussed - i.e., children and how to discern their evolutionary state.  Acutally, from what was posted it would seem the evolutionary state would correlate to more 'maturity' with regard to desires & their gratification, entirely aside and separate from cultural conditioning (i.e., a three year old in a consensus state won't react too differently across the board socially/culturally - it would also be true that a spiritual state three year old would not seek such immediate gratification also generally true despite social/culture condition - that's my grasp of the idea, anyway) .  
Still not sure what 'ageism' is.  Thanks for 'translating' and your thoughts!  


Hi Lucius,

Just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.  I believe you are making a distinction between evolutionary state and maturity level - that one cannot discern evolutionary state by ascertaining level of maturity.  Is this correct?  My thinking was that a child exhibiting "immediate gratification" tendencies would be more likely to be in a consensus state, but I believe you are saying that this is not true.....?  I think I had in mind the story of the Dalai Lama, in which the Chinese gave all the kids some ice cream, and when the Dalai Lama (then a young child) did not immediately eat it up, they figured he must be the one.  (Sorry for the delay in response - no internet at home and don't always have the chance to make it to a public one or internet bar...)

Thanks for your thoughts,
Ellen
« Last Edit: Dec 22, 2009, 04:26 PM by Ellen » Logged
Elen
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« Reply #25 on: Dec 22, 2009, 04:20 PM »

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the clarification/background information.

Ellen
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Lucius
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« Reply #26 on: Dec 22, 2009, 06:58 PM »

No - immediate gratification is a trait of the consensus....Steve posted about it earlier in the thread.  I was saying that the desire for gratification is not different across cultures/societies for the most part - a Lakota indian three year old in consensus will want what she wants as much as an Asian three year old in a supermarket.  It is, indeed, the evolutionary, not cultural, context that may change desire, i.e., gratification. 

Perhaps my post was confusing because I was flummoxed by Seesaw's strange ideas about gratification & lack of meaningful relationships - that correlation makes zero sense to me.  To use an ice cream 3 year old example - most three year olds will want ice cream whether or not they have close, meaningful relationships.  And, sure, those in a spiritual state might deal better with a situation of being promised ice cream and then not getting it.

So, I think we're agreeing! 
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Elen
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« Reply #27 on: Dec 23, 2009, 11:19 AM »

Hi Lucius,

Yes, I agree - I think we're agreeing.  Perhaps when one is transitioning from a consensus to an individuated state, one can fall into the trap of blaming culture for one's felt sense of alienation rather than recognizing that there is simply a shift occuring in oneself that is indicating positive growth/change.....?  I think I was confused on this point myself.  Thanks for the exchange.  I learned a lot!

Ellen
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Steve
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« Reply #28 on: Dec 23, 2009, 11:46 AM »

Hi

If you want to get metaphysical about it, "children" (in reality, Souls inhabiting small bodies) are coming here straight out of the astral, where every thought/desire manifests right before your eyes.  Is it any wonder they expect "instant gratification"?  They are not yet (once again) used to earth reality, where the law of Time is present, where desires are not instantly fulfilled.    To me the reaction of a child wanting "instant gratification", is not so much a function of a level of spiritual evolution, its part of an adjustment process that all Souls must go through.

A difference between more evolved "Souls as children" and consensus "Souls as children" is the more evolved Souls would be more conscious of the nature of this reality from past experience, and thus have more context / perspective, thus be able to more rapidly adapt and accept the inherent limitations of life in a 3 dimensional child body. 

Not too many Souls are excited about the opportunity of entering yet another body where they can feel limited and constricted - that's not too hard to grasp!  It comes down to the capacity to accept the limitations, to realize WHY they are being imposed - to further that Soul's evolution, and hopefully that, along the way, also serves others.  The more evolved Souls will inherently remember this and thus their behaviors may be more tempered than the more typical 3 year old's.

We also live in a consumer culture that feeds the immediate gratification impulse in children, on purpose, to create life-long patterns of consuming (feel bad?  go shopping), to sustain our economic system.  So children "get used to" that impulse being immediately fulfilled, and then they start to expect it as a right.  Behaviors that are pretty common in adults too.  That is an example of societal conditioning, of creating values that are not natural, that ultimately have an ulterior motive - to benefit someone else at the expense of the individual so conditioned.
Steve
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Elen
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« Reply #29 on: Dec 23, 2009, 12:35 PM »

To me the reaction of a child wanting "instant gratification", is not so much a function of a level of spiritual evolution, its part of an adjustment process that all Souls must go through.

We also live in a consumer culture that feeds the immediate gratification impulse in children, on purpose, to create life-long patterns of consuming (feel bad?  go shopping), to sustain our economic system.  So children "get used to" that impulse being immediately fulfilled, and then they start to expect it as a right.  Behaviors that are pretty common in adults too.  That is an example of societal conditioning, of creating values that are not natural, that ultimately have an ulterior motive - to benefit someone else at the expense of the individual so conditioned.
Steve

Hi Steve,
Thank you!  That clarifies a lot and makes perfect sense (ie, the Soul having to go through an adjustment process).  I am wondering if, given what you wrote re: societal conditioning, which also makes perfect sense, you can comment more specifically about what I wrote - the idea that a person transitioning from a consensus to an individuated state, not understanding what is happening, may blame society for its newly felt sense of alienation.  On the one hand, there is the social conditioning, which is true.  On the other hand, there is the need for personal responsibility.  But perhaps this is no longer appropriate for this topic - perhaps at this point, it is no longer children we are talking about, but adults...?  Perhaps this has been part of the confusion from the start...

Much appreciation,
Ellen


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