GENDER ISSUES..........ANOTHER OLD MESSAGE BOARD SUBJECT

[Rad]

Hi All,

We have one more old JWG message board subject that was extracted and put together by Adina Mather. This one is on gender issues. Feel free to ask any questions you may have. God Bless, Rad

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                                           Gender Issues – Anima/Animus


                                            Recent Gender Switch

(Q): when there is a recent gender switch indicated in the chart, is it possible to use the phasal relationship of Saturn and moon to determine how recently that switch occurred?

(A): yes, when one becomes very skilled at this kind of work... until then it may be better to simply suggest to the client 'within the last few lifetimes'

                                         Gender switching

(Q):  Are there any other indicators in the chart for a recent gender switch besides the following: nodal axis in 4/10 or cancer/cap; Pluto in 4 or 10; moon in 4 or 10 sq. nodal axis? Are there ever times that a recent gender switch (as related to you by a client) would not be reflected in the natal chart? And if so why would that not be reflected in the chart? 

(A): well a new phase moon / Saturn can also correlate to a very recent gender shift .. no it would always be symbolized ....

                                    Recent Gender Switch

(Q): How does one interpret the principle of gender switching under the following conditions? south and north nodes of moon in cancer Capricorn in 10/4 respectively (recent gender switch) and yet with balsamic sat/moon conj in gem in 9 (preparation for a gender switch)? Does this mean that the person is spending relatively few lifetimes in their present gender? and if so is there enough info here to determine the reason for that? how would the Pluto in Libra in 1st in an 11 degree sq to the nodal axis play into this phenomenon? (asc is 0 libra).

(A): The signature that you are pointing correlates to a soul that is getting ready for the gender switch yet thru the balsamic moon/ Saturn Pluto squaring the nodes the current gender that the person is in not yet finished in terms of the prevailing evolutionary intentions that have been in place for prior to the current life. If the person makes the choices that honor whatever the nature of the skipped steps are that are connected to gender issues then this will serve as the break from the current gender relative to the next life. If not this pattern will come up again ..........,Jeffrey,


                                                      Equality in Rulership

The issue I would like to discuss is the "natural" rulership system. It is my feeling that innate balance of yin/yang in the zodiac was distorted when the patriarchy assigned their own gods to the signs. It seems to me that the only two female images that they felt comfortable with were the moon/mother and Venus/consort. It is interesting to note that many esoteric astrologers even advocate that a spiritually evolved person should transcend and essentially eliminate the moon function from their lives. My questions are:
 
1. In what ways have feminine archetypes been distorted and which ones have been simply omitted?

2. Specifically, why is the earth completely ignored? Isn't she a powerful force in our lives which seems to naturally rule Taurean functions? It seems to me the earth as ruler of Taurus also lends a different emphasis to the nature of Taurus as the power to sustain ourselves on the physical plane.

3. It isn't much of a stretch of the imagination to see that Pisces and Scorpio have been masked with the faces of male gods, in spite of their inherently feminine natures. Can I trust that the rapist is an accurate symbol for the soul?

4. Capricorn is another yin sign which is ruled by a male god, but in this case the entire interpretation of the sign has taken on a masculine character. Is there a feminine force lurking beneath the sea goat? Or does Capricorn imply on some level the unification of male/female within oneself?

5. The other sign that speaks of balance between male and female is Libra, an air/yang sign ruled by Venus. Although I believe Venus does naturally rule Libra, I find it interesting that one of the two goddesses left in the zodiac was assigned a masculine, logical and dry mode in which to operate.

6. This leaves Virgo. It does not make a lot of sense to me that an earth sign is ruled by Mercury. I assign the asteroids to Virgo. Because the asteroids occupy the gap in our solar system between Mars and Jupiter, I believe that there once was a feminine power represented by a planet in that orbit. Is it the karma of our solar system that a whole aspect of the feminine consciousness was blown to bits? To try and discover the lost meaning of Virgo I have looked to the symbology of the sacred virgin/prostitute, Vesta and the practices and discrimination we use to maintain our sacred fire aka sexual energy. Other asteroids contribute other qualities to this sign, for example, Ceres and the sheaf of grain...

At this time, this is simply my line of thought. I do not apply these principles to chart interpretation, due to the ambiguity of where the earth is found in any chart. Does she represent the entire circle? It is also difficult when the rulers of Virgo are scattered throughout the chart, for me not to get lost in the complexity that represents. Furthermore, I feel really green (no pun intended) and would like some feedback on the validity of these thoughts. bambi

(Answer) 1. to answer this question is to understand that the very nature of women, naturally speaking, has itself been distorted and misunderstood by men, the patriarchy, even since its transition began. Thus, any archetype that correlates to the feminine principle in astrology itself is a reflection of the generalized misunderstanding of women’s natural nature. Simple example of this point is that up until very recent times women’s sexuality was understood by men to be essentially passive, and that orgasm had no actual biological purpose or function. in reality of course women’s sexual nature is identical to men’s in the context of also having a natural impulse to sexually initiate an encounter. The role of orgasm is specific to drawing up the sperm of the man upon ejaculation in order to conceive. so to pinpoint any one astrological symbol via distortions to the feminine application of it is not the point.

2. The earth in not ignored... it is reflected in the fact of your birth/birth chart calculated for a time/space/place on earth. the element of earth is also stressed in astrology as is water, air, etc. Venus has an inner application thru Taurus that does indeed correlate with the very survival instinct in all forms of life, including human. the survival instinct in turn creates the awareness in all people of what is needed to survive, and to be sustained. in turn this requires all of us to inwardly determine what inherent resources we have to effect such survival, and/ or what we need from others, the natural inconjunct back to Libra from Taurus, external projections now based on survival needs that we depend on others to fulfill. This is earth stuff.

3. The 'rapist' can only occur in a reality that is removed from and suppressing natural sexual laws. in this context the phenomena of rape correlates to Scorpio, Pluto, the 8th house. all things emanate from the soul so such a soul who has enough inner rage/ distortion sexually/psychologically speaking can become a rapist.

4.Yes, relative to the cancer polarity this is the archetype of the inner male/ female, gender assignment as described by the consensus of any society, and progressively from an evolutionary point of view, via the natural squares to Aries and Libra, the necessity of arriving an a state of androgyny. The feminine side of Capricorn is reflected in the deep inner need to loose control and to access chaos in the sense of chaos becoming a vehicle to create structural change of one's reality, and one's consciousness

5. of course it makes sense because one of the functions of mercury is to understand the nature of the phenomenal nature of creation as expressed on earth, thus the need to learn about the inherent reality on earth... to understand it is then to a mental organization of it, and the mental organization of it provides the information or knowledge necessary to live within it... again, natural feminine consciousness was progressively distorted relative to the patriarchal transition... even your statement about the 'sacred prostitute', for example is a myth in the sense that men created this role for women, it is not a role that women created for themselves... Virgo, feminized by men, has equaled the pathetic notion of the chaste virgin and all that... the idea of purity/sexuality/the Medona syndrome... in reality Virgo sexualized in a highly sexed sign naturally... Jeffrey


                                                        Feminine/Masculine

(Q): I have been having a very hard time separating out what are the natural, intrinsic differences between male and female, men and woman, as opposed to the societal conditioned differences. In your first Pluto book you say, referring to Fourth house Pluto people and their gender conflict, that "This conflict is based on the fact that the emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and physical structure of man and woman are intrinsically different." Physical differences are obvious. When you strip away societal/parental conditioning, what are the natural law emotional, intellectual and spiritual differences? Being a fourth house Pluto I find this difficult to understand. When people constantly tell you that you don't act like a woman... what does that mean, or is it their own bullshit? I'm starting to come to a tentative conclusion that it is a process of integrating my natural impulse to be feminine and vulnerable with my equally natural impulse to be aggressive and masculine, not an either or question, but it is still confusing. For example, if I met a guy I like, and he starts talking about his past adventures, traveling alone, etcetera, I natural share my past adventures... this turns them off! How do you advise a client who has strong male/females issues to integrate? Clara

(A): In the end, there is no difference other than functions... the inherent function of the feminine, and the inherent function of the masculine... The rest of your comments/statement/ questions concerns the effects of conditioning... for any man or woman who is in the evolutionary process of consciously integrating the inner male/female the challenge in so doing is to simply honor and actualize the inherent dynamics, impulses, and ways of being that the soul dictates. like in your example of wanting to share your own stories/adventures with men, whom freely do this with you, yet they then have weird or negative reaction... this is their male conditioning that tells them that the women must be 'pure, demure, essentially be a vicarious extension and possession of the male reality'... relative to that conditioning your sharing will trigger this conditioning... obviously this is not 'natural'... so your challenge is just to be who you are... and to learn how to evaluate the rightness of a potential partner... i.e. a partner who has evolved to the point of knowing, accepting and honoring the women as co-equal to himself and who encourages, without feeling threatened, the full actualization of that which you intrinsically are... kind of like the old bumper sticker of the hippie time: 'take it or leave it'... Jeffrey

(Q): What do the anima and animus start looking like in the late individuated and spiritual stages? On the one hand, I could imagine them becoming either more androgynous as the man and woman do, or even more gender definite as the man/woman become more androgynous. On the other hand, I could imagine them providing an image of the inner divine father and inner divine mother.

(A): As the soul evolves into the first stage spiritual and beyond then the conscious integration begins of the anima/animus and the appearance of such souls gradually reflects this integration ... i.e. the face being more or less equally male and female

to be continued........

[Rad]

continuing ...                                             
                                              Composite Mother/Son

(Q): In a composite mother/son chart when there is no sign of gender switching, do you find the roles played out by the mother in previous lives by the moon and its aspects?......And the son would be seen by what sign?

(A): Jeffrey: yes, the moon and its aspects, also the sign on the 4th house cusp, the location of it's planetary ruler by house, sign, and aspects, and the sign Cancer .. the house cusp of where it is ...... the son will be indicated by the sun, the sign Leo, the sign on the fifth house cusp ..

                                              Timing of Gender Switch

(Q): In a chart with a gender switch signature would you use the Pluto/Mars and/or the Mars/Venus phasal relationship to establish how many lifetimes a person has been in the new gender?

(A): No, because the Pluto/ Mars can only tell you how many previous 'primary lives' have been lived relative to the evolutionary intent ... not the subsidiary lives ........ so too with the Mars/ Venus .......

                        Recent Gender Switch and Gender Reassignment Surgery

(Q): I have a client who has had a recent gender switch (s and n nodes in cancer/cap in 4/10), who has never felt comfortable with their current life gender and who has now undergone surgery for a this/life physical gender switch. Would it be useful to create a new 'natal' chart for the person based on the time of the surgery? and if so, how would I compare it to the original natal chart?

(A): Jeffrey: HI Susan, No, the natal chart is the natal chart and contains the whole story for all Souls, including gender switch issues. The chart that correlates to the surgery will reflect how the person relates to the fact of the gender being switched. Thus, like any event chart, you simply combine the 'synastry' of that moment to the natal chart as an 'imprint' for the rest of the person's life in the switched gender.

                   Conjunction of Venus North Node and Neptune South Node

(Q): Would that be correct to say that, Venus N.N. conj. less than 1 degree to Neptune S.N. (10'11" Aq.) means the evolutionary intent is to re-establish the Aquarian Age values (2nd house/Venus)in a personalized, individualized way (as Venus is the lower-thus more self-conscious, more dense, personalized octave of Neptune)?

(A): Jeffrey: Yes, which really means natural gender relative to feminine and masculine identity.. relationships that are defined this way, with the natural roles therein, and the natural sexuality and its expression as a reflection of that ..

                                             Questions on Pluto dynamics

Hey Jeffrey- I have a couple of questions for you on the material:

Is there a general evolutionary condition when the rulers of the N+S nodes are square?
(a) No

2) Is there a general evolutionary paradigm when the Asc is squared the nodal axis (what is the nature of the skipped step here if there is a general one)

(A) Primarily this involves an emotional paradox linked with relationships. The cause is that the Soul feels within itself that it has some special destiny to actualize where the feeling itself is primarily instinctual in nature. As a result the Soul desires to have enough circumstantial freedom in order to be free enough to act upon the instinctual desires that will lead to the actualization of that special destiny. Conversely, the soul also desires to complete itself thru relationships .. not as the dominate partner in which the relationship primarily revolves around the individual, the soul, but a relationship based on true equality in which they give to the partner for the sake of giving .. to give according to the partner that which they actually need versus what the soul/individual thinks that the partner needs.

This has then created the emotional paradox for the Soul because the fear that is generated relative to the paradox is a fear of being limited or 'entrapped' within such a relationship that is perceived to then undermine the need for freedom leading to the actualization of the 'special destiny' .. as a result the Soul will re-attract in this life partners from other lives in which the relationship has not been completed based upon the above evolutionary need.

(Q) In the case where Pluto is conj the NN but a planet is also conj the SN and is squared to the Asc, how specifically would this dynamic serve as a block to  the NN conj Pluto?

Jeffrey: The above dynamics would be magnified a great deal until the lesson is learned .. and now adding to these dynamics the evolutionary need for both individual within the relationship to actualize their own inner security within the relationship and, depending on the level of evolution, i.e. from the third stage individuated and above, the need to begin the radical deconditioning from the existing societies 'norms' of what a relationship is. . . to begin to return to natural law and natural gender actualized and defined within the relationship ...

                                                    Homosexuality

(Q):  I have some questions about homosexuality:

1 Is it manifested by a soul desiring to become another gender, thus taking more than one lifetime to integrate into the new gender and so homosexuality occurs?

(A):  Let's remember that all souls are equally male and female .. as the soul evolves there comes a time in which the conscious integration of that inner male and female, equally, must occur. This typically occurs in a patriarchal society when the soul evolves to the second stage of the individuated state. When this is the case the soul only knows that IT IS NOT the consensus definition of whatever gender it finds itself in whether female or male. Knowing that it is not that the typical inner feeling/ thought is that it must be homosexual because it cannot be defined by the limited definition of female or male relative to the consensus. Yet if you place such a soul in a homosexual or lesbian environment, which has its own consensus by the way, such a soul will still feel 'different' than that consensus .. really not fitting into that environment at all. So what that feeling of being different means and symbolizes is that in fact the soul is not 'technically' a homosexual or lesbian but in fact simply means that the soul is evolving in such a way that it becomes necessary to not only throw off the stupid consensus conditioning relative to gender, but that more importantly it is now time to begin the conscious journey towards integrating the inner male and female equally and simultaneously.. this then means that it is essential in terms of forming relationships that the soul forms such relationships with other 'like-minded' souls. And of course sexual union with others of the same gender can occur as a result only because in natural law that is free from artificial conditioning it naturally occurred that same gender sexuality did occur because the inner orientation was not limited to having sex to have sex but more importantly to making 'love' with the soul more than the body ..

This is a very important thing to understand when one is counseling 'gay' people because some are not 'technically' homosexual or lesbian .. and to help such souls understand where these feeling are coming from when they find themselves with desires or thoughts of having same sex union's ...

Natural law is the cause or determinant of same sex union's even when they occur for soul's who have not evolved to the second stage individuated as above .. but this natural law when manifesting in patriarchal societies can of itself become distorted and thus the manifestations of that natural law are themselves distorted. Relative to the progressive suppression of natural law thru the patriarchal centuries which has caused the build of rage and distortion because of that distortion the psychological damage, distortions, that all to often manifest thru the parental environment can so affect a child that a typical consequence of such damage by a parent(s) can also cause or lead to the 'distortion' of same sex unions as a way of compensating for that childhood damage. From a patriarchal point of view then this then become the determinant of some folks who are 'technically' gay .. and these types then create they own consensus kinds of environments with the same kinds of male and female 'roles' being played out in such environments .. the 'drag queen' for example, or the 'bull dyke' kind of thing ..

(Q): Is it naturally occurring outside of a patriarchal society (my intuition says yes)?

(A): Yes, as above ..

(Q): What are some typical signatures of homosexuality in a chart?

(A): Well 'typical' would correlate with Mars aspected to Neptune, Uranus, Pluto ... Mars in Pisces or in the 12th .. Venus also in these kinds of patterns, Neptune, Uranus, or Pluto in the 8th or 2nd, Neptune, Uranus, or Pluto in the 10th or 4th, mars in the 10th or 4th, and so on .. there are MANY possible combinations of dynamics that can lead to this ...

end

[Elen]

                                    
                                    Recent Gender Switch

(Q): How does one interpret the principle of gender switching under the following conditions? south and north nodes of moon in cancer Capricorn in 10/4 respectively (recent gender switch) and yet with balsamic sat/moon conj in gem in 9 (preparation for a gender switch)? Does this mean that the person is spending relatively few lifetimes in their present gender? and if so is there enough info here to determine the reason for that? how would the Pluto in Libra in 1st in an 11 degree sq to the nodal axis play into this phenomenon? (asc is 0 libra).

(A): The signature that you are pointing correlates to a soul that is getting ready for the gender switch yet thru the balsamic moon/ Saturn Pluto squaring the nodes the current gender that the person is in not yet finished in terms of the prevailing evolutionary intentions that have been in place for prior to the current life. If the person makes the choices that honor whatever the nature of the skipped steps are that are connected to gender issues then this will serve as the break from the current gender relative to the next life. If not this pattern will come up again ..........,Jeffrey

Hi Rad,

I had a question about the above: will Saturn/Moon remain in a balsamic phase until the Soul is ready to move on in terms of gender switch? 

Another way of asking this: would you ever find a situation with Saturn/Moon waxing phase with correspondingly emphasized 4th/10th as indicating resistance to the gender switch such that it hasn't happened?  Actually, as I wrote that, the answer to me seems to be "no".  But perhaps there could be residual issues that haven't been resolved even though the gender switch has already actually happened?

Hope that makes sense.

Also, in another post on this topic you talked about the signatures that could indicate homosexual orientation.  Among these were Neptune/Uranus/Pluto in 2nd/8th.  Just wanted to check that my thinking is correct - could this also include Neptune/Uranus/Pluto in Taurus/Scorpio?  And/or Venus/Mars in Pisces/Aquarius/Scorpio...........?

One final question:  could Saturn or Moon in mutable signs ever indicate gender switch?


I greatly appreciate your efforts and attention to these questions - speaking generally about the MB and also specific to these.  And I am grateful for all of the growth that this material has made possible for me.

Peace,
Elen

[Rad]

Hi Elen,

I had a question about the above: will Saturn/Moon remain in a balsamic phase until the Soul is ready to move on in terms of gender switch? 

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Every Soul  has it's own individual evolutionary context, in total, that is then the determinant of all things including gender switching. Thus, for some Souls the answer would be yes, for others no.

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Another way of asking this: would you ever find a situation with Saturn/Moon waxing phase with correspondingly emphasized 4th/10th as indicating resistance to the gender switch such that it hasn't happened?  Actually, as I wrote that, the answer to me seems to be "no".  But perhaps there could be residual issues that haven't been resolved even though the gender switch has already actually happened?

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Again, the whole individual evolutionary history of any given Soul has to be understood. What you are asking here about those symbols simply is not enough to be able to even begin to answer the question you have posed.

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Hope that makes sense.

Also, in another post on this topic you talked about the signatures that could indicate homosexual orientation.  Among these were Neptune/Uranus/Pluto in 2nd/8th.  Just wanted to check that my thinking is correct - could this also include Neptune/Uranus/Pluto in Taurus/Scorpio?  And/or Venus/Mars in Pisces/Aquarius/Scorpio...........?

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Pluto in the 8th or 2nd is not a symbol, of itself, that correlates to homosexuality. No to Uranus/Pluto/Uranus in Taurus/Scorpio. Mars or Venus in Pisces COULD correlate to this but there are MANY other factors to consider before an assessment of homosexuality could be made.

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One final question:  could Saturn or Moon in mutable signs ever indicate gender switch?

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Of themselves, no.

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God Bless, Rad

[Elen]

Hi Rad,

Thank you for those answers.  Really surprised me to hear re: Moon/Saturn phase and also outer planets in signs as opposed to houses, so glad I asked and thank you again.

Peace,
Elen