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Author Topic: New ea practice thread for beginners  (Read 19152 times)
ari moshe
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« Reply #60 on: Sep 11, 2012, 10:37 am »

Hi Rita,
Once again thank you for your interpretation and your efforts. What you have written is accurate within the possibilities of these signatures.

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Hi Ari,
Hi All,


South Node third house Gemini, ruler Mercury, Air, masculine, mutable

To clarify in case this is not understood, Mercury is the ruler of Gemini, not the third house. The ruler of the third house depends on the sign that is on the third house cusp.

With the South Node in Gemini / third house, the evolutionary intent in the past has been to seek out and gather as much information as possible so to feel emotionally secure and safe, but usually all the information they gather lacks depth.

All this information will help the Third house SN person understand who and what he is according to his surroundings. He feels a constant desire for information, this unconscious urge pushes him in all directions to go and gather more information so as to be able to communicate and see the reactions it causes on others. This way the third house SN gets to understand who he is and what he is in relation to the surrounding.

 The tendency for a third house SN  is too look for something that he believes will help him get to know himself, and along his quest, there is a new word. This  new word,  will catch his attention and at that point the third house SN/ Gemini will go off on a totally irrelevant avenue only to later become  emotionally insecure, confused and threatened with the new knowledge he now has and does not know what to do with it. Does it make sense?

Yes it does make sense and is true as a possible expression of a third house sn. This points to the 3rd house pattern of exposing oneself to way too much data, information, perspectives etc but not all of it adding up to make any sense. This can create immense confusion within the soul especially as more "data" or possibly more "opinions" present themselves - which can lead to feeling threatened, defensive, or in another way totally stuck in dualistic thinking. Relative to the position of Pluto, the question is always "why" would any of these patterns exist in the first place?

SN third house/ Gemini is a communicator, he likes to share his knowledge. He tends to like all means of communication available to him, so as to pass on/ share the information he got and  by seeing the reaction of the other he will learn what information is important and which is not.
When third house SN/Gemini becomes distorted, he will be mentally bored or frustrated  because he needs continuous mental growth. He also tends to be very sure of his truth, beliefs or points of views,( this is also a distortion of the archetype) when others show him different truths, but just as valid as his own. This creates for the SN third house a crisis of identity, as his security has been rocked and what he thought to be true may effectively not be so true.

Yes this is true. In the 3rd house a soul can create an intellectual organization of reality in it's mind where all the facts and data measure up in a certain way. Since there is literally an infinite amount to learn about reality, there will always be more facts, more data to synthesize and connect the dots. Jeff Green describes the learning process inherent to Gemini as a "series of progressively expanding concentric circles" which is the basis of what we call "opinions" - conclusions made based on what is currently known. This is the inherent limitation to the 3rd house - not everything can ever be known.

However the opposite to what you described above is often true: A soul that is stuck in reactive thought patterns that can see the pro's and cons to everything; all sides to any argument/perspective/idea and not knowing which one to "choose".


The PPP of third house /Gemini is Sagittarius 9 house, this archetype correlates to the intuition, teachers, and the need to understand life in a cosmological,metaphysical and philosophical way. SN / third house / Gemini will gather information and through the  PP 9 house /Sagittarius he will realize that in order to understand more about life, he needs to stop accumulating all this different information and focus on one or two subjects and understand them in a deeper cosmological and metaphysical way.

With Pluto in the seventh house / Libra and the SN in the third house /Gemini,  he has had many relationships with different people so as to get to know himself through the attitudes, behavior, opinions and beliefs of others  thus creating for himself a secure and safe environment. The potential for unbalanced / unequal relationships in which he does not really have an identity of his own occurs.

Beautiful synthesis of Pluto with the sn Rita. This soul can adopt so easily to whomever it is talking to/in relationship with in the moment.

This because he has been doing for so long what others do without questioning for himself if there are other ways, other truths or other religions existent.

One way to think of this is as a pattern of duplicity: trying on different perspectives and speaking various things with different people, which in this case is all rooted in the unresolved desires of the soul to be liked, needed, accepted etc (7th house). This points back to the core limitations of the soul, where it has used it's own mental capacities to perpetuate and secure it's dependencies on other people.

Eventually he will create a crisis because of his beliefs, opinions and encounter other peoples different points of view that threaten his own. This will force him to interiorize and seek for himself what to believe or not to believe. The PPP is the first House Aries, this points to the need that this individual will have to go out and discover for himself what different values, opinions, religions are out there.

At the core it's about the soul listening to itself, not everyone else. Not collecting more values, opinions, religions - but rather, simplifying and focusing. Depending on the nature of its karma, this soul may attract to itself all kinds of points of views from so many people. This is more about the soul weeding out (Pluto) it's relationship patterns to listen to so many people (7th house is the archetype of "listening") and trusting its gut (1st house Pluto polarity point). Notice the movement is towards fire (1st house, 9th house). So it's all about intuition, inner knowing, and self direction.

He will use (SN third house/ Gemini)his relationships with his immediate family, school friends and small gatherings to form his own opinion about himself,  as his opinions become more formed he will share them with conviction on to others that will have completely different points of views, creating in him doubts, which in turn become insecurities.

This is possible, and I want to add some more perspective to this. In any conversation this soul may have, the key is to not resort to reactive thinking and reactive conversation - where everything heard can become a point that elicits a counter point. This soul can also easily mirror (7th house) other people's conversation patterns and other people's thought patterns to the point that this soul will literally chameleon itself in any conversation. The point would be for this soul to stay close to it's own inner knowing of the truth and to not communicate based on it's underlying desire to be liked/approved/accepted by others.

He no longer can be sure that what he believed was really the truth. He will seek to know more, to deepen his knowledge( PP nine house/Sagittarius) to view life through a more metaphysical, cosmological and philosophical way. The evolutionary intent is for him to be in a balanced relationship in which both partners take full responsibility for what they want, allowing each other to have their own freedom, opinions, values and ideas and feel ok with the fact that they are different.

The evolutionary intent is not balanced relationships. The evolutionary intent it is for the soul to establish a relationship with itself first and foremost. Balanced relationship is what is learned and affected as a result of the soul embracing it's polarity point via the north node: to develop the intuition, alone - not dependent on other people.

rita

With love,
Ari Moshe
« Last Edit: Sep 11, 2012, 06:58 pm by ari moshe » Logged
ari moshe
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« Reply #61 on: Sep 11, 2012, 10:50 am »

Hi Emily,
Thank you for your interpretation. Everything you wrote is an accurate synthesis of these signatures.

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Hi,

Ari - thanks for your responses!

Pluto in the 7th, SN in the 3rd:

If Pluto in the 7th is desiring to learn who it is via comparison to others and has needed to initiate a diversity of relationships to make this happen then in this situation it seems easy to see how it had created a 3rd house ego.  Both of these houses are similar in that they are yang, air houses.  The ego symbolized by the South Node in the 3rd would have been interested in gathering lots of information from other people.  Just based on these two signatures this was probably a very outgoing individual, very social, very communicative.  This person would have needed interaction with others in order to know themselves.  They may have taken in others opinions as their own without question, or may have been very skeptical of others opinions, ideas, and beliefs.  They would have had a certain restlessness about them and with regard to relationships may have been involved in many shallow/superficial relationships without real commitment (again only based on these two signatures).  There would have been a genuine sense of curiosity.  This person would have been focused on gathering information in order to form a sense of emotional security.   

However for all of their openness they may still have formed limiting opinions that hindered their growth and would probably have attracted other people (7th house) who knew more than they did and challenged their way of thinking – causing the person to have to review their own logic.  The intensity of these confrontations would have been dependent on how tightly they were holding on to their opinions.  This person could be bringing gifts/capacities related to writing, speaking, or teaching.  Possible limitations could be related to be being very scattered and to consuming too much information without a solid worldview in place through which to filter all of the details.
 
I think these signatures imply that the individual has been attempting to learn their own truth by opening up to the environment and then trying to organize all that they take in in a logical, left-brain, way.  The lesson is going to be to pick one system that resonates with them and to rely more on intuition.  I also see how this is related to the desire to learn to be an equal in relationships, especially with respect to listening.  The South Node in the 3rd may only listen to what fits with its own opinions, and the desire of the 7th house Pluto is to learn how to listen to other points of view.  In the best case, the 3rd house South Node would be very open to listening to all points of view and to communicating with real listening and respectful response instead of reaction.

Yes, all very true. This soul can be a truly great listener and be skilled at hearing all that an other person is saying. They may have various gifts related to that which might make them a great counselor: the capacity to listen to others and take in all different perspectives and reflect those perspectives back to the individual.

And as you pointed to this signature can also point to reactive listening patterns, where everything one partner says becomes the trigger for a counter thought in the other partner which is then immediately communicated.


-Emily

With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #62 on: Sep 11, 2012, 11:06 am »

Hi Kora,
Thank you for your interpretation. Everything you wrote is an accurate synthesis of these signatures.

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Hi Everyone,

Glad to be back on the thread!  Special thanks to Upasika for your insights and illustration regarding ego as relates to Aires, Cancer and Scorpio....I found your comments thought provoking and helpful.

Here are some of my thoughts regarding Gemini in the South Node:  This would be a soul who is coming from an ego identity based on a strongly developed intellect/mind based on its ability to organize/classify physical reality and its relationship to it....this could be a scientist. 

This is someone who has been expanding sense of self through constantly learning new things.  Gemini is a mutable sign so if this person has been evolving in a positive direction he or she would be constantly expanding their understanding of themselves (ego identity) in relation to their physical environment.  This is someone who is probably a good communicator and knows how to listen to others.   This person would probably have a strong social network.  If not evolving in a progressive manner due to their egoic insecurity this person might resist expanding through new information and might instead be limited in their information sources taking in only what supports their previously established points of view. 

They could be reactive, defensive in relationships with others justifying their viewpoints through well thought out logical arguments.  With Pluto in the 7th this might be someone who manipulates their partner through words or who is coyote in the sense that they appear to listen to the other but their personal agenda based on insecure ego is quite different than what appears on the surface. 

They may be very reactive in their responses to their partner constantly making the partner feel they are wrong and give a good logical argument as to why.  Another possibility as far as limitation could be that they are very scattered and without any unifying system of personal truth....they might have their hands in everything but lack depth in anything....They might have totally lost the deeper sense of who they are with the other person.  Positive evolution for this person will come through the N node in Sagittarius which will require a deepening through finding their own unifying intuitive truth based on personal experience of natural law.

Kora

Really great job Kora. You touched upon both sides of this signature: what it looks like for the soul to play the dominant or submissive role in relationships.
With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #63 on: Sep 11, 2012, 11:31 am »

Hi Stephen, welcome to this message board!
Thanks for your post and participation here. Everything you wrote is accurate within the possibilities of these signatures.

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Happy Friday All,

My first time posting. No new insights here, but definitely good practice for me. Thanks Ari for being gracious with your time! And thanks to those who've contributed...very helpful bits.

With the SN in the 3rd, the soul has sought security by logically ordering information about its physical environment, and thereby determining its place in existence accordingly. As streams of new information are continually pouring in, the individual is confronted with the choice to either accept new ideas or to reject them. Or, of course, to unconsciously react based on her/his current framework. And while there's been the desire to find and maintain the stable mental framework that provides security, there's also the evolutionary desire to learn more about oneself via new information/experience.

This dynamic creates what JWG calls 'cyclic intellectual implosions or cataclysms in which the logical structure of intellectual organization disintegrates'. So while 3rd house individuals can be dogmatic, they've also learned how to be mutable as new directly-experienced information is integrated. Lessons for the 3rd house individual involve aligning oneself with an intuitively-felt philosophical truth outside of themselves (9th house polarity). This in turn provides the 3rd house balance and mental focus.

Outside of its linear mental faculties.

The 7th house Pluto & 3rd house SN reveals that this soul has (in the past) gone about learning how to be an equal in relationships via the intellect and sensory experiences.

I do not think that "sensory" is accurate here. I understand sensory to relate to Taurus. If I am wrong, Rad or someone else will jump in here and clarify this.

Through mental feedback in each new experience, this individual has formed an understanding of its place in a relationship. The 9th house polarity would involve trusting ones 'gut' and realizing that relationships and Love are not rational and cannot be understood.

To clarify: 9th house = intuition. 1st house is more of a gut/instinct thing. Of course they are very tied in together via the natural trine between Sag and Aries.

It's simple to feel how movement to the 9th house essence would de-facto activate the 1st house PPP...not relying on the information feedback loop, but aligning with inner intuition. This individual will tend to draw into her/his experience relationships with people who represent some sort of unknown in terms of information.

Beautifully said and very true

As previous posters mentioned, there'd likely be resistance to and insecurity in light of new information and viewpoints. So while the evolutionary intent is to learn true communication, there's also a block that arises due to the 3rd house reactivity and projection. The lesson here is to open up to the 9th house polarity, realizing on a gut-level that there's an infinite number of viewpoints. Thus, giving space for true objective listening in relationships.

To clarify: The evolutionary intent is to listen to oneself, to know one's truth from within, independent of others.

Hugs,
Stephen

With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #64 on: Sep 11, 2012, 12:01 pm »

Hi all, I feel called to offer some further reflections. And soon I hope to quote some teachings from Jeff Green about these signatures.

The main thing to remember is that Pluto is the bottom line - unresolved desires linked to relationship. Thus the nature of those desires have, in the end, been the basis for the creation of this particular 3rd house ego. When we are unconscious of our desires (which we all are to a strong degree) it defacto manifests as compulsions and patterns of manipulation.

One thing that hasn't been explored too much yet has been the dynamics of dominance and submission within this soul. The way this soul knows how to adopt to various social circumstances, to "speak the language" of others - can express as an ability to know what to say, how to give to others according to what others seem to need, to know how to be agreeable, and to adopt communication styles of other people.

This of course creates an imbalanced power dynamic and it can go either way. One partner may always have the answer, always have an opinion to everything that is said, or always be very quick to respond - leading eventually to the other partner feeling unheard and unlistened to. The pressure of that imbalance, if it is not internalized and acted upon via new choices, eventually leads to some sort of eruption or cataclysm.

The soul may also have developed an insucurity in relationships wheirin it is constantly "giving" to the other by way of responding to everything that is said when a response isn't necessarily warranted or needed. In some cases the partner will EXPECT a response so as to feel secure (ie saying something and wanting/expecting to hear some sort of validation as a response). If the soul with this signature is responding to their partner so as to make their partner feel secure, then it is not being truthful about itself, but rather adopting a specific communication behavior on the basis of needing to meet the needs of the partner. To not exhibit these patterns may result in the partner not feeling heard or listened to. This would open to the door to all these emotions/projections/needs/fears which may or may not be shared. Relative to the nn in the 9th house - telling the truth is the point.

We'll explore the north node and the polarity point soon...
With love,
Ari Moshe
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Gray
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« Reply #65 on: Sep 11, 2012, 04:05 pm »

Hello Ari and group,


This combination will have previously manifested a 3rd House identity in pursuit of 7th House relationship desires, continuing to be drawn in this direction while also working on a north node movement toward the 9th house.  Thus the Pluto drive for relationship is colored by a tendency to seek security in mental organization of the phenomenal world they find themselves in.  On the one hand, those evolving forward are  learning the 7th House Pluto lessons that come from the movement toward the 1st House polarity, including forming a strong sense of Self and relationship to Self so they can become more secure in their choice of entering a relationship as well as more secure and balanced while interacting in their relationships, instead of entering relationships out of a compulsive desire for the security of being in a relationship with someone.  However, as long as there is an unbalanced aspect of their 7th House Pluto it will also therefore influence their 3rd House tendencies and cause the 3rd House dynamic to play out in a manner that is more about maintaining their 7th House relationships in a compulsive manner.  So, the point is just to remember to re-connect the 3rd House archetypal patterns back to the fact that this soul is also working on 7th House archetypal patterns.

Ari, I originally had not thought of commenting upon the aspect relating to this that you did in your recent post, but that idea really resonates for me with this dynamic and I would like to comment on it.  The importance of the movement toward the 9th House can truly be seen here, and does indeed relate to the importance of discovering and expressing Honesty in relation to the 3rd/9th axis of development- it is about integrating the development of 9th House Intuition along with the development of a clearer and more discerning relationship with the true Self that comes from movement to the Pluto polarity of the 1st House.  I feel this is one of the most important lessons for a soul with these dynamics to learn. With the tendency of a 7th House Pluto to give to a partner and give to relationships, and also possessing the ability to tune into the desires and thinking of others in relationships, the danger of losing themselves in the process can be accentuated with the spiral/mutable nature of the 3rd house South Node given its archetypal ability to mentally absorb concepts and ideas in its environment, and become a social chameleon of sorts able to navigate diverse conversations while lacking a deep rooted core sense of Self and belief for their mental skills to ground into.  As a result it is imperative to gain the security to listen to themselves and figure out what they truly believe and think and have the confidence to communicate this to others and be able to listen to the opinions of others without being overly influenced or manipulated by the opinions and beliefs of others.  Intuition is such a perfect symbol of this need, as it is centered more in the body and is a truly personal skill of discernment.  The more these individuals are able to develop their intuition, and not only listen to it but also have the courage to follow it, in the end it will help them also experience great growth in their 7th House Pluto issues.  They will learn how to develop healthier boundaries for themselves in their relationships and learn how to express their true needs without repressing them due to being afraid of hurting the feelings of their partner.  As they cultivate their intuition to higher levels, and also learn from the disillusionment and difficulties of their experiences, they will gain greater clarity for when to give versus when not to give, and when they need to put more emphasis on their own needs in a dynamic versus when the needs they feel are more compulsive relationship desires and not their real truth, for example deciding to be present and giving despite the opposite compulsive desire of feeling like they need space from the relationship. In the end, as Ari mentioned, it is about them telling the truth and learning to act from their truth separate from compulsive relationship desires of a 7th House Pluto-  Ari's point about being honest and telling the truth instead of acting in a way to make the partner feel more secure is very insightful to me and of utmost importance for someone with this signature.

Interestingly, a lot of the dynamics of this signature relate to honesty and expressing truth, which connects with the idea that there are many people with many different versions of truth, that there is also a greater Truth, but that there is also a limited amount in the end that can be completely understood on an intellectual level towards this greater Truth.  With the 7th House Pluto aspect, there is also the importance of more traditional notions of truth and honesty; with a 3rd House south node as has been mentioned it is important to gain the inner confidence to express their own truth and own true opinions instead of trying to fit them in with the opinions of others to please them.  When there are some unbalanced tendencies toward manipulation, there could be 3rd House tendencies to figure out what someone is looking for in a conversation or relationship and then continually adjust and readjust their statements and thinking to fit each new development, without a central guiding principle- this reminds me of a duplicitous politician who continually changes his political views to continue to advance his political position to fit each new political context he finds himself within.  When there is a 7th House Pluto in the mix with a 3rd House  south node, it is thus fundamentally important to be working on the bottom line issues of the stronger and clearer relationship to the Self, the Pluto relationship issues, at the same time the nodal development to the 9th house is happening.

The 3rd house past soul history archetype commonly is about a tendency to gain security for oneself through being able to understand intellectual or mental aspects of one’s reality.  As a result they will often form relationships that are spurring on development and growth of their mental understanding of their world.  Especially if there are planets squaring the nodal axis, most likely the Soul as already been working on the movement toward the 9th House and going back and forth along the axis of development- the movement toward the 9th House includes cultivating clearer Intuition, cultivating the ability to respond to situations and relationships rather than react, and being able to integrate their diverse 3rd House mental exploration of reality into a more wholistic understanding of their world, often connected with an ancient wisdom lineage that takes a metaphysical or cosmic perspective into understanding their reality. Through relationships they are learning that truth is relative to the egoic perspective of each human around them, and that ultimately there is also a greater Truth that all of these relative perceptions of truth connect to;  however, at the same time that there is only so much of this great Truth they can ultimately understand with their rational mind. Through the process of going so far in mental explorations of a 3rd House nature, at some point they will realize they need to actually simplify and focus and be more present and intuitive with their reality- in the end this will get them closer to their truth than exhausting their mental capacities in an unending search for new information about the meaning of everything.  However, until this happens, the 3rd house south node will give the tendency to be continually expanding their intellectual understanding of the world through their relationships.  

As JWG wrote in the first Pluto book, the desire of a 3rd house archetype does not necessarily mean that they would have been searching for the deeper, metaphysical reasoning behind this mental knowledge- for example, some will be more about learning the prevailing or consensus mental concepts dominating their culture and finding security by going along with those beliefs. JWG also noted that this can be about "facts verified through the senses" (p.72) which I think is where that "sensory" comment noted earlier could have come from? The 3rd house south node would give the tendency for a 7th house Pluto to find part of their security through this mental understanding and connection with others, and yet the spiral nature of the attraction/repulsion would attract relationships at points that would help propel them out of a previously limiting mindset into a more expansive viewpoint.  As some develop into individuation, it becomes more about discovering mental concepts and ideas that go against the status quo through their relationships and interactions, or that help explain the issues and agitation and anger they feel toward consensus reality and oppression linked with the status quo; some of these people could then use their 3rd House mental exploration to criticize consensus reality, or protest against it.  As JWG noted, a lot of people at this stage will be resistant to conforming to any pre-existing metaphysical system of knowledge, until they start learning more of the spiritual 9th house directional importance of simplifying and focusing upon a pre-existing metaphysical system that provides a wider cosmic viewpoint to process through. In any case, the emphasis toward the 3rd house would be more about gaining new information or expanding thinking instead of simplifying it or focusing it more intuitively in a 9th house direction.  And the 3rd house pattern of mental development will tend to continue until some sort of confrontation occurs which causes them to rethink their mental perspective; for those with 7th house Pluto this would tend to happen from relationships. And the reason why behind this is because their mental perspective had become too limiting for their development forward, and they realize there is a larger perspective to take in.

It will be through relationships that this soul signature will experience this 3rd/9th house development.  For example, they may begin life surrounded by family, family friends, and immediate culture that is putting forth a fairly consistent belief structure, that eventually as they grow up they realize is not really their true belief system perhaps- why, someone over there thinks this way, and that person over there thinks that way, and what an interesting point and feeling this singer is making in this song, and so forth. And so can begin a long and exhaustive exploration of a wide variety of philosophies and beliefs.  And as there is greater security at times found through developing a system of understanding reality, if that system of thinking is ultimately limiting for their development, they will experience disillusionment or a confrontation in relationship that forces them to reconsider their beliefs and make them realize there is more to understand.  But ultimately going on a neverending search for more information will not lead them to what they truly need to develop- the ability to listen to themselves and their intuition, as well as the ability to truly listen to what another is saying in a relationship and respond based upon that understanding.  Otherwise, they may be reactive in conversation and relationships, using each interaction to test their own understanding or put forth their own viewpoint.  And they can become too scattered, and also risk the danger of losing themselves in the philosophies and thinking of others, thinking and beliefs that may not be truly resonant for their true sense of self.  But as the gain the confidence of the 1st house Pluto polarity point to figure out what they truly think and also have the confidence to express it, as well as not be overly defensive or reactive to the opinions and truths of others around them, they will likewise be able to more strongly move into the 9th house direction of being able to truly respond to others in conversation without feeling reactive or the need to prove that their opinion is right and correct, and they will also be able to better develop their intuition and be able to discern more clearly in the present moment of each interaction what they truly think in response to that moment, without being influenced by the opinions of others around them.

JWG in the first Pluto book also has interesting points about 3rd House Pluto people sometimes wanting to develop their own metaphysical systems- I wonder if this still connects with a South Node signature as strongly, but I feel that with a 7th House Pluto this could happen at a stage of development potentially.  That through all of these diverse relationships and mental explorations they could begin to take a thing here from this, and thing here from that, and start to put together their own metaphysical understanding of things.  However, ultimately they would realize the limited nature of this endeavor, and gain the capacity to see the wisdom in many of the ancient wisdom lineages around them, and that as they simplify and focus their understanding and learning into one of these lineages, they can come to greater understanding in the end through gaining greater focus and clarity of mind.  The important aspect again with all of this is the relationship they develop with themselves, so that the process of learning the wisdom lineage would not be about losing connection with their own intuition and sense of self, it would be part of the process of simplifying and having greater focus and ability to act from intuition with the ability and humility to respond to others instead of react.



Love and blessings,
Gray
« Last Edit: Sep 11, 2012, 07:41 pm by Gray » Logged
sfc
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« Reply #66 on: Sep 11, 2012, 05:32 pm »

Thanks Gray, for all the time and insights!

And big thanks Ari, for again asserting that Pluto is the bottom line intention here. Also, thanks for pointing out the difference between gut/instinct and intuition, and the trine between them. Guessing 'third eye' would correlate better to intuition than the gut.
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ari moshe
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« Reply #67 on: Sep 11, 2012, 07:55 pm »

Hi all, just wanted to let you know I made a few corrections/revisions to my response to Rita.

Thanks for you post Gray - I'll be back to look at that tomorrow.
God bless, with love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #68 on: Sep 12, 2012, 09:04 am »

Hi Gray, thank you once again for your contribution here. What you have written is accurate for this signature save for a couple corrections.

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Hello Ari and group,

This combination will have previously manifested a 3rd House identity in pursuit of 7th House relationship desires, continuing to be drawn in this direction while also working on a north node movement toward the 9th house.

Why would you say that this soul is also necessarily working on movement towards the nn? What implies that as a fact?

 Thus the Pluto drive for relationship is colored by a tendency to seek security in mental organization of the phenomenal world they find themselves in. 

On the one hand, those evolving forward are  learning the 7th House Pluto lessons that come from the movement toward the 1st House polarity, including forming a strong sense of Self and relationship to Self so they can become more secure in their choice of entering a relationship as well as more secure and balanced while interacting in their relationships, instead of entering relationships out of a compulsive desire for the security of being in a relationship with someone.  However, as long as there is an unbalanced aspect of their 7th House Pluto it will also therefore influence their 3rd House tendencies and cause the 3rd House dynamic to play out in a manner that is more about maintaining their 7th House relationships in a compulsive manner.  So, the point is just to remember to re-connect the 3rd House archetypal patterns back to the fact that this soul is also working on 7th House archetypal patterns.

Ari, I originally had not thought of commenting upon the aspect relating to this that you did in your recent post, but that idea really resonates for me with this dynamic and I would like to comment on it.  The importance of the movement toward the 9th House can truly be seen here, and does indeed relate to the importance of discovering and expressing Honesty in relation to the 3rd/9th axis of development- it is about integrating the development of 9th House Intuition along with the development of a clearer and more discerning relationship with the true Self that comes from movement to the Pluto polarity of the 1st House.  I feel this is one of the most important lessons for a soul with these dynamics to learn.

With the tendency of a 7th House Pluto to give to a partner and give to relationships, and also possessing the ability to tune into the desires and thinking of others in relationships, the danger of losing themselves in the process can be accentuated with the spiral/mutable nature of the 3rd house South Node given its archetypal ability to mentally absorb concepts and ideas in its environment, and become a social chameleon of sorts able to navigate diverse conversations while lacking a deep rooted core sense of Self and belief for their mental skills to ground into.  As a result it is imperative to gain the security to listen to themselves and figure out what they truly believe and think and have the confidence to communicate this to others and be able to listen to the opinions of others without being overly influenced or manipulated by the opinions and beliefs of others.  Intuition is such a perfect symbol of this need, as it is centered more in the body and is a truly personal skill of discernment. 

I understand what your saying - However I'm not certain if its accurate to say the intuition is centered in the body. What you wrote feels specifically relevant to a combination of Sag with Virgo. If anyone has an ea perspective to offer regarding this, please do so.

The more these individuals are able to develop their intuition, and not only listen to it but also have the courage to follow it, in the end it will help them also experience great growth in their 7th House Pluto issues.  They will learn how to develop healthier boundaries for themselves in their relationships and learn how to express their true needs without repressing them due to being afraid of hurting the feelings of their partner.

I don't know if "repress" is the right word, since repress is specific to the Capricorn archetype. What I would refine is that this soul might mimic its environment, adopt the communication styles of another and try to "fit in" in order to meet the projected needs of another. This leads to imbalance in these relationships, deeper needs not being met, and the possibility of dependencies being created through the sustaining of such patterns.

One thing to add to this is the dynamic of curiosity. The soul can be authentically interested in learning about other people to the point that it will consistently over-expose itself to too much social interaction, and in the end will feel drained and depleted by all these relationships. This then creates the need for the soul to be alone at times in order to integrate and process through all the absorbed psychic material. This can be a repetitive pattern if the soul doesn't seek to look inside itself and understand why this keeps on happening in the first place.


As they cultivate their intuition to higher levels, and also learn from the disillusionment and difficulties of their experiences, they will gain greater clarity for when to give versus when not to give, and when they need to put more emphasis on their own needs in a dynamic versus when the needs they feel are more compulsive relationship desires and not their real truth, for example deciding to be present and giving despite the opposite compulsive desire of feeling like they need space from the relationship. In the end, as Ari mentioned, it is about them telling the truth and learning to act from their truth separate from compulsive relationship desires of a 7th House Pluto-  Ari's point about being honest and telling the truth instead of acting in a way to make the partner feel more secure is very insightful to me and of utmost importance for someone with this signature.

Interestingly, a lot of the dynamics of this signature relate to honesty and expressing truth, which connects with the idea that there are many people with many different versions of truth, that there is also a greater Truth, but that there is also a limited amount in the end that can be completely understood on an intellectual level towards this greater Truth.  With the 7th House Pluto aspect, there is also the importance of more traditional notions of truth and honesty; with a 3rd House south node as has been mentioned it is important to gain the inner confidence to express their own truth and own true opinions instead of trying to fit them in with the opinions of others to please them. 

When there are some unbalanced tendencies toward manipulation, there could be 3rd House tendencies to figure out what someone is looking for in a conversation or relationship and then continually adjust and readjust their statements and thinking to fit each new development, without a central guiding principle- this reminds me of a duplicitous politician who continually changes his political views to continue to advance his political position to fit each new political context he finds himself within.  When there is a 7th House Pluto in the mix with a 3rd House  south node, it is thus fundamentally important to be working on the bottom line issues of the stronger and clearer relationship to the Self, the Pluto relationship issues, at the same time the nodal development to the 9th house is happening.

The 3rd house past soul history archetype commonly is about a tendency to gain security for oneself through being able to understand intellectual or mental aspects of one’s reality.  As a result they will often form relationships that are spurring on development and growth of their mental understanding of their world.  Especially if there are planets squaring the nodal axis, most likely the Soul as already been working on the movement toward the 9th House and going back and forth along the axis of development-

There are no planets squaring the nodal axis in the signatures I have given, thus as far as we know there has been no flip flopping.

the movement toward the 9th House includes cultivating clearer Intuition, cultivating the ability to respond to situations and relationships rather than react, and being able to integrate their diverse 3rd House mental exploration of reality into a more wholistic understanding of their world, often connected with an ancient wisdom lineage that takes a metaphysical or cosmic perspective into understanding their reality.

Through relationships they are learning that truth is relative to the egoic perspective of each human around them, and that ultimately there is also a greater Truth that all of these relative perceptions of truth connect to;  however, at the same time that there is only so much of this great Truth they can ultimately understand with their rational mind. Through the process of going so far in mental explorations of a 3rd House nature, at some point they will realize they need to actually simplify and focus and be more present and intuitive with their reality- in the end this will get them closer to their truth than exhausting their mental capacities in an unending search for new information about the meaning of everything.  However, until this happens, the 3rd house south node will give the tendency to be continually expanding their intellectual understanding of the world through their relationships. 

As JWG wrote in the first Pluto book, the desire of a 3rd house archetype does not necessarily mean that they would have been searching for the deeper, metaphysical reasoning behind this mental knowledge- for example, some will be more about learning the prevailing or consensus mental concepts dominating their culture and finding security by going along with those beliefs. JWG also noted that this can be about "facts verified through the senses" (p.72) which I think is where that "sensory" comment noted earlier could have come from?

Thanks for clarifying that.

The 3rd house south node would give the tendency for a 7th house Pluto to find part of their security through this mental understanding and connection with others, and yet the spiral nature of the attraction/repulsion would attract relationships at points that would help propel them out of a previously limiting mindset into a more expansive viewpoint.  As some develop into individuation, it becomes more about discovering mental concepts and ideas that go against the status quo through their relationships and interactions, or that help explain the issues and agitation and anger they feel toward consensus reality and oppression linked with the status quo; some of these people could then use their 3rd House mental exploration to criticize consensus reality, or protest against it.  As JWG noted, a lot of people at this stage will be resistant to conforming to any pre-existing metaphysical system of knowledge, until they start learning more of the spiritual 9th house directional importance of simplifying and focusing upon a pre-existing metaphysical system that provides a wider cosmic viewpoint to process through. In any case, the emphasis toward the 3rd house would be more about gaining new information or expanding thinking instead of simplifying it or focusing it more intuitively in a 9th house direction.  And the 3rd house pattern of mental development will tend to continue until some sort of confrontation occurs which causes them to rethink their mental perspective; for those with 7th house Pluto this would tend to happen from relationships. And the reason why behind this is because their mental perspective had become too limiting for their development forward, and they realize there is a larger perspective to take in.

It will be through relationships that this soul signature will experience this 3rd/9th house development.  For example, they may begin life surrounded by family, family friends, and immediate culture that is putting forth a fairly consistent belief structure, that eventually as they grow up they realize is not really their true belief system perhaps- why, someone over there thinks this way, and that person over there thinks that way, and what an interesting point and feeling this singer is making in this song, and so forth. And so can begin a long and exhaustive exploration of a wide variety of philosophies and beliefs. 

And as there is greater security at times found through developing a system of understanding reality, if that system of thinking is ultimately limiting for their development, they will experience disillusionment or a confrontation in relationship that forces them to reconsider their beliefs and make them realize there is more to understand.  But ultimately going on a neverending search for more information will not lead them to what they truly need to develop- the ability to listen to themselves and their intuition, as well as the ability to truly listen to what another is saying in a relationship and respond based upon that understanding. 

Otherwise, they may be reactive in conversation and relationships, using each interaction to test their own understanding or put forth their own viewpoint.  And they can become too scattered, and also risk the danger of losing themselves in the philosophies and thinking of others, thinking and beliefs that may not be truly resonant for their true sense of self.  But as the gain the confidence of the 1st house Pluto polarity point to figure out what they truly think and also have the confidence to express it, as well as not be overly defensive or reactive to the opinions and truths of others around them, they will likewise be able to more strongly move into the 9th house direction of being able to truly respond to others in conversation without feeling reactive or the need to prove that their opinion is right and correct, and they will also be able to better develop their intuition and be able to discern more clearly in the present moment of each interaction what they truly think in response to that moment, without being influenced by the opinions of others around them.

JWG in the first Pluto book also has interesting points about 3rd House Pluto people sometimes wanting to develop their own metaphysical systems- I wonder if this still connects with a South Node signature as strongly, but I feel that with a 7th House Pluto this could happen at a stage of development potentially.  That through all of these diverse relationships and mental explorations they could begin to take a thing here from this, and thing here from that, and start to put together their own metaphysical understanding of things.  However, ultimately they would realize the limited nature of this endeavor, and gain the capacity to see the wisdom in many of the ancient wisdom lineages around them, and that as they simplify and focus their understanding and learning into one of these lineages, they can come to greater understanding in the end through gaining greater focus and clarity of mind.  The important aspect again with all of this is the relationship they develop with themselves, so that the process of learning the wisdom lineage would not be about losing connection with their own intuition and sense of self, it would be part of the process of simplifying and having greater focus and ability to act from intuition with the ability and humility to respond to others instead of react.

Love and blessings,
Gray

With love,
Ari Moshe
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ari moshe
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« Reply #69 on: Sep 12, 2012, 09:21 am »

Hi Stephen, since you brought it up, I thought I'd offer a point of clarification that you can look further into if you wish.

I don't know much about the third eye as actual knowledge I feel competent to speak about, however I do not recall ever learning that it correlates with Sag.

I know Jeff Green has taught that the third eye, within the chakra system, is linked to the Moon and the Sun.

Sag/intuition is the right brain, and within the chakra system correlates to the sacral ckara - along with Neptune.
With love
am
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ari moshe
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« Reply #70 on: Sep 12, 2012, 09:43 am »

Hi all!

Thank you everyone for your posts. Everyone who has posted has exemplified a comprehension and correct application of this ea paradigm. At this point, before we move to the next step, I want to invite any further reflections or questions on these signatures. And as always if anyone more experienced in this work wishes to offer further reflection on these signatures, please do so.

Also, several of you have addressed the north node and the Pluto polarity point. Just to remind everyone, at this point we are only working with Pluto and the south node - so while it's ok, there is no need to address the nn and the polarity point all that much at this point. The reason for this is to get a firm foundation in understanding the underlying desires and the subsequent karmic dynamics and tendencies of the past that are being brought forth into this life as a strong starting point.

God bless, with love,
Ari Moshe
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Henrik
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« Reply #71 on: Sep 12, 2012, 10:11 am »

Hi Ari and everyone.

Sn 3rd house/Pluto 7th house:
The Soul is coming from a series of lives in which it has programmed a persona who has gathered and ordered information in order to expand it’s knowledge of the mind and by doing so to feel secure. In this life the person is drawing upon a series of lives where the soul has desired to learn how to be in relationships with other in order to be able to listen to itself (PPP) and as a byproduct (by being able to stay true to itself) be able to give to others according to their reality (for good or for worse). On the way, the persona that has been created has approached relationships in a mental fashion and communication as well as media (I guess even in the “old days” they had some media) has been how it has the person has expanded its data banks. To give an example, it’s possible that the person has taken in information from other people on how other they involve themselves in relationship (2nd hand knowledge…gathering opinions) and have tried to apply this in their own relationship. It’s possible that some of its relationships have been where the Sn in the 3rd person feels that the other person have new information that can be of interest to the person (however, not in a Sagittarius way). In any way, because of the trine between the 3rd and 7th house, it has probably been easy for this person to listen and hear other peoples viewpoints in a relationship. This is not to say that the person has operated with the best of intentions and the possibility of manipulation is of course there. So you could still have the different scenarios that JWG speaks about (Pluto in the 7th house). In essence what you have is a series of lives in which the person has sought a variety of relationships in order to expand on its knowledge through linear train of thought and where it has learned how to listen (thus decreasing its reactive tendencies) to other within relationships. Within this, ther is a spectrum of possibilities as to how this person has used this ability. The person could have manipulated relationships (by playing back the other persons reality while pushing it’s own agenda) or it could have done pretty much the same thing but to be subservient in a relationship…and all facets in between.
I know this isn’t a full exploration of the spectrum of possibilities of these three achetypes (Pluto, 7th house, and 3rd house), but I just wanted to post something to see if I’m on the right track here.

Thank you for this possibility.

All the best,
Henrik
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Gray
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« Reply #72 on: Sep 12, 2012, 10:15 am »

Ari, thank you for your feedback.  I did realize after writing that I had focused too much on the 9th house and the Pluto polarity point, instead of just focusing on the 3rd house. I'll work on having better focus with that as I am writing- figured I might as well just share what I wrote, though.

Funny about your comment about intuition and the body- after reading that, I realized I have a combination of Sagitarius and Virgo in my own chart so I was probably speaking more from my own experience there.

I really appreciate the focus you are giving to the 3rd house past pattern influence.  Its insightful how you described the pattern of how the 3rd south node/7th pluto would be trying to please a partner more so than expressing self-needs, and how that leads to dependencies in relationship.  It is illuminating for me to think about the difference in meaning from wording it the way you did instead of using the word "repress" like I did- I get what you mean by this, and I think that is a fundamental 3rd House issue.  Especially in combination with a 7th house Pluto, there is the ability to figure out the projected needs and expectations of a partner and then try to fit in with it through the 3rd house patterns, even being able to mutate and change as the partner's expectations change.  This is a fundamental problem as the 3rd house south node/7th house Pluto person is not being truly authentic, so in some way or another they will eventually disappoint the partner most likely since they are not truly being authentic in the way they are going about meeting the needs of their partner, and they will also catalyze their own 7th house Pluto issues- they are not being honest with themselves or honestly stating their own needs, so they will most likely not have their needs met in their relationship, and all sorts of difficult back and forth projections in the relationship can ensue between the partners, with the attraction/repulsion aspect of the 7th house Pluto getting very much involved.  The "dependencies" aspect here can be a real problem, including that the 3rd house pattern has led them to foster a dependency with their partner, and since they haven't honestly been expressing their own needs or thinking in complete truth, sooner or later its going to come out that the partner can't really be dependent upon them for meeting their expectations and since a dependency has been developed it will make this issue all the more intense.  The flip side being that as has been mentioned, they can also be effective counselors, listeners, and mirrors to others in relationship- however, unless they are working on the 9th house nodal direction and Pluto relationship issues, there can be some of these difficult dynamics developing in the relationship.

I also appreciated your feedback about how curious 3rd house south node people can be, and that with the 7th house Pluto this will lead to a lot of social engagement they ultimately find to be exhausting, which then leads to them needing time alone to recharge.  This also makes me think of how they will probably tend to be attracted to relationships based upon a mental aspect, and if they are staying in a 3rd house pattern of relating this could mean they could remain more reactive in interactions and also be done with the relationship once they move on to being interested in different mental concepts they can find in other relationships.  When they meet someone that they feel can cause them some mental growth- this could be about learning more about a subject they are already interested in, or it could be from a sense that a potential relationship carries information that is confrontational and disruptive to their thinking but that there is an attraction for engaging it because of the subsequent growth it will cause mentally-  they could then use a 3rd house ability to figure out how to engage the new relationship and then also continue it by fitting in with the mental frameworks of the conversations.  If they have a tendency to be reacting, it could be even be with someone with whom they tend to have intense arguments that are nonetheless dramatic and compelling to participate in.  If they aren't evolving out of a purely mental attraction like this in relationships, they could then have a tendency to move on to other relationships once they no longer feel the need to learn about the mental information or philosophy the previously compelling relationship was providing for them.  A positive flip side to this could be if they are a writer or journalist or filmmaker or artist or someone communicating through the media- in this way they could be in a constant process of picking up fascinating information around them and then communicating it out to the world, able to quickly move from relationship to relationship to help get the information they feel compelled to communicate through media.  In any case though, if they aren't taking care of their own true needs but instead maintaining a heavy expression of curiosity focused upon absorbing mental information from others, they are definitely going to end up being exhausted! And then need to pull back from relationships to re-center if they want to gain more of a center- would this also be a movement to the 9th house in some ways?

Just trying to focus more on a pure 3rd house direction- let me know if I'm off with this at all.

 
love, Gray
« Last Edit: Sep 12, 2012, 02:56 pm by Gray » Logged
kora
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« Reply #73 on: Sep 12, 2012, 04:57 pm »

Hi Ari and Everyone,

Thanks so much Ari for your feedback...and thanks to everyone for the time and effort you are putting in to your posts as I am learning a great deal from each one of you along with the feedback and comments given.  I find the reminders of where to keep the focus and how to prioritize (and when to ask why) very helpful to hopefully avoid getting lost as we start to add more pieces....

Love and gratitude to all,
Kora
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kora
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« Reply #74 on: Sep 12, 2012, 09:32 pm »

Hi again to All,

I was just reflecting on the the differences regarding the skill of listening as it applies to the Gemini and Libra archetypes and maybe others have further thoughts or insights....It seems to me that while Gemini can appear to be a good listener and is usually a good communicator the motivation is very different from Libra and this is what can make a Gemini listener very misleading to others....Gemini is motivated by the need to expand information/ego via  their relationship to physical phenemonal reality....they would probably be just as happy not relating to others at all if the information could come from a book or some other experience....Gemini is a very social archetype but the reason is for logical information gathering/ expansion....is this correct?  If they have unresolved ego agendas in this information seeking pursuit then their listening skills can be very misleading to others in that others think they are interested in them....however their interest is not actually in personal relationship with others.
  On the other hand for Libra the soul desire/egoic need is to relate to others in a balanced personal way.  Its kind of paradoxical to me that someone with Pluto/Libra if they have unresolved ego agendas might externally appear to others to be far worse at listening and relating than Gemini yet their authentic desire would be to learn to listen in a balanced way and to respond to others according to what they need because they are striving to know themselves through finding balance in relationship.  Just some thoughts for whatever they are worth....correct me if I am off base here.

Kora 
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